ForumsWEPRFreedom of religion attacked!

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deathbewithyou
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deathbewithyou
534 posts
Nomad

So you've probably heard the news. It seems the Obama administration decided christian hospitals "must" provide contraception and morning pills which is against what they belive in. I find it surprising Obama would be so bold. What are your thoughts on this?

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deathbewithyou
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deathbewithyou
534 posts
Nomad

So what all you people are saying is that christian hospitals don't have a rite to practice what they believe in? Christians have a rite to own hospitals as do many other religous groups. private religous Hospitals are here to help people, but if someone decides to have them do something against their beliefs this violates the first ammendment.

NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

This isn't an attack on religion. If it were an attack on religion, then it would be unconstitutional. Instead, it's an attack on freedom of choice, which isn't specifically covered in the Bill of Rights.

the government doesn't force anything.
the government only wants to make sure that it is available to every1 that wants to use it.


Christian hospital doesn't offer Diane a morning after pill. Diane goes to hospital that DOES offer morning after pill, whether it be Christian or not. Problem solved.

As far as I know who ever owns the hospital needs some kind of permit or license, but so do the doctors that practice medicine. So even if the hospital didn't need one the doctors would, and they would be required by law to provide the care the patient needs/wants.


That's a HORRIBLE idea. Doctors should have a choice as to what they do OR they should follow whatever contract they have with the hospital they work for. For the government to force doctors to provide certain treatments is just ridiculous. If a doctor refuses to provide care for someone, it's up to the hospital to decide if that doctor should continue working their or not.

I have a HUGE problem with doctors being forced to provide treatments by the government. If a doctor doesn't believe in providing morning after pills, he shouldn't be forced to do so unless he signed a contract with the hospital he is working for. If the service he refuses isn't in his contract, then the hospital should be allowed to fire him unless he is protected by that contract, in which case it's an issue between him and the hospital. Does the patient suffer? Not really, they could go to a different doctor within the same hospital.

The government shouldn't be allowed to tell doctors what they can and can not do. Would you support the government's decision to require abortions as standard practice? What about euthanasia? There are some things doctors do not want to do, and if they have a problem with doing something, they shouldn't be forced to do so.

I did a quick google search and it seems like Obama is trying to make contraceptives and other birth-prevention measures free. That's a different level of BS.

My question is, why in the bloody world is this the FEDERAL government's responsibility? Why can't this be particular state's concern? This is such an abuse of power. To Obama, everything he supports is without a doubt best for everyone, and therefore should be forced onto everyone as a whole. He doesn't understand that he's NOT all knowing, that he isn't God. He doesn't understand that he might just be wrong. If Obama was a rational leader, he would allow the states to handle this issue so that if he IS wrong, only the states who implemented the plan suffer. If he is right, then other states could follow down the line and adopt such successful and right policies.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

There is one thing you seem to forget.

What pays for much of the education and the opportunities that allows this?
If there was a shortage of doctors and they knew how to provide many of these practices but didn't want to, would you accept it?
- Why should that be different for if there's an abundance?

Hospitals are not all that convenient to just, "go to", NoName. If religious beliefs prevented tampering with someones body, like a kidney transplant, would you permit someone not doing it? It's the exact same situation. The idea behind not using morning after pills and contraceptives is solid, but the idea FOR using them is as well -- and it's based on religious grounds.

Which have no grounds.

As someone who has taken pretty much maximum funds from taxpayer's money to obtain their status as a Doctor, it is in their professional ethical duty to provide their services and products to those who let him gain an income in the first place.

- H

NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

It doesn't violate the first amendment. By saying a hospital should have what patients might require is kind of a "Duh" thing, and by denying patients a valid treatment simply because the hospital, "doesn't believe in it" is unethical.


A patient has the right to choose which hospital they go to, the hospital has the right to choose which services they provide.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

A patient has the right to choose which hospital they go to, the hospital has the right to choose which services they provide.


So when someone gets into a car accident and is unconscious, and an ambulance comes and picks them up they tell the paramedics where to take them huh?

Hospitals should provide all forms of treatment for patients that require/want them. The doctor's personal beliefs are not the patients, and if the patient wants a certain treatment the doctor doesn't agree with, then either another doctor can deal with it or that doctor can suck it up and realize that pressing one's belief on another is wrong.

Sure, they "can" go to another hospital, if they want to go out of there way for like 20-30 minutes. Hospitals aren't around every other corner you know.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

... Really?
There is a limit on what you should be allowed to exclude, you have responsibilities as a Doctor, or any medical practitioner.

Would we permit this for a lawyer, judge, police officer or scientist? We all know that we would not. There needs -- NEEDS to be consistency in society, and medical facilities that can help human lives, social lives, love lives and etc MUST be able to provide all the benefits.

Euthanasia? You mentioned this in your previous post and I missed it, but thinking of it -- I see this as a familiar situation. The only way I can see this is acceptable on a Doctor's part if unwilling (and thus being forced) is the indirect method, where you stop using anything that are the back legs to the person's life. An "assertive" method of letting someone go would be the effort of killing and is not the same as a result.

The idea behind abortions is one that should be nationally (preferably internationally but we all know that won't happened) clarified. Is it classed as killing if done before 3, 5 months? If so, then it can't really be allowed. It's not like there aren't alternatives either.

If you make the effort (sex) that risks giving birth then it is your responsibility to handle the consequences. Contraceptives prevent being pregnant (an effort to avoid life in the first place, no harm is done) whereas abortion is the effort to kill the fetus (which is an effort to kill another thing, harm is done).

- H

NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Freedom of Religion? People have the right to proper medication and care. The freedom of religion has already been extended to utterly rediculous results and it just shows how much the name of "religion" can change something.


What you linked is wrong because someone is being granted immunity because of their religion.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The term "freedom of religion" is most often associated with the Bill of Rights. In this case, "freedom of religion" does refer to the 1st amendment in the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights restricts the government, not the people or businesses. A hospital can't violate the Bill of Rights.

The government passing a law that requires hospitals to do something because of their religion goes strictly against the Bill of Rights. However, I'm confident that if this news is true, that the government will require all hospitals to provide these services, which wouldn't go against the first amendment.

To me, this isn't about religion at all, it's about freedom.

Hospitals are not all that convenient to just, "go to", NoName. If religious beliefs prevented tampering with someones body, like a kidney transplant, would you permit someone not doing it? It's the exact same situation. The idea behind not using morning after pills and contraceptives is solid, but the idea FOR using them is as well -- and it's based on religious grounds.


The idea that a hospital wouldn't allow kidney transplants just doesn't sound like something that would happen. Sure, it could, but since it's not, there's no need to pass a law to prevent hospitals from denying this treatment. I believe it's widely accepted that it would be unethical to deny kidney treatments.

The only issue I can really see is if there's only one or two hospitals in an area and neither one provides these services. From what I know, which I admit isn't much, we could have more hospitals (some of which are highly likely to offer these services) if there wasn't so much red tape when it comes to trying to open up new hospitals.

If you live in an area where there are multiple hospitals, I doubt it would be difficult to find one that will offer services that the others wont.

As someone who has taken pretty much maximum funds from taxpayer's money to obtain their status as a Doctor, it is in their professional ethical duty to provide their services and products to those who let him gain an income in the first place.


Tax payers includes people who don't support contraception and morning after pills.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
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Jester

So when someone gets into a car accident and is unconscious, and an ambulance comes and picks them up they tell the paramedics where to take them huh?


Would you like a red bonnet for your Red Herring?

The doctor's personal beliefs are not the patients, and if the patient wants a certain treatment the doctor doesn't agree with, then either another doctor can deal with it or that doctor can suck it up and realize that pressing one's belief on another is wrong.


You must have not read Nemo's supporting argument of a contract given to doctors when they apply to a hospital for work. So as to not damage my credibility, let's make this hypothetical. If a doctor does have a binding contract with the hospital he/she works in, he/she is bound to do exactly what the contract forces him to do. Otherwise, he can relocate to another hospital that is loose enough for his beliefs.

Would we permit this for a lawyer, judge, police officer or scientist? We all know that we would not. There needs -- NEEDS to be consistency in society, and medical facilities that can help human lives, social lives, love lives and etc MUST be able to provide all the benefits.


We're talking about contraception here. In a hospital. If they came to a hospital just to be supplied with contraception, they can always go to a planned parenthood clinic; there's no stopping them there.
Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

respecting an establishment of religion,


A Hospital isn't a religious establishment, regardless of whether it's founders carry religious morals.

To me, this isn't about religion at all, it's about freedom.


I find it odd that you consider having all hospitals provide patients with what treatments they want imposing on freedom.

Would you like a red bonnet for your Red Herring?


My point is, people may just go to the nearest hospital and be unaware that it would not offer something, because logically one would assume a hospital would offer such a basic treatment.

You must have not read Nemo's supporting argument of a contract given to doctors when they apply to a hospital for work.


So the doctors on contract to not have to deal with abortion/prevention cases don't get assigned those. I don't see the problem.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

I think it would be Ok for religious hospitals to give selective treatments, assuming several things:

1. They receive no government funding. Receive government funding and be secular.
2. Have another secular hospital within a decent distance from the first hospital. This would mean that you don't have to go a hundred miles to find the operation you want.

Maybe I will make the list bigger later. But if there is those two, and the emergency services for said hospital are competent and don't do something stupid that is the basics of medicine, like blocking blood transfusions or vaccines, then it really doesn't matter.

Having said that, what exactly is the point of having a religious hospital? Why not just make a secular one, and increase the amount of people willing to come to it?

Highfire
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Highfire
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Nomad

What you linked is wrong because someone is being granted immunity because of their religion.

Doctor's have a duty to provide their services and products to their patients, no? It would be dumb to train and employ them otherwise.

To me, this isn't about religion at all, it's about freedom.

Which I've extended to the ideology of having the duty.

The idea that a hospital wouldn't allow kidney transplants just doesn't sound like something that would happen.

The hypothetical situation that is possible thanks to Religion bares weight, because it's possible thanks to religion.

Sure, it could, but since it's not, there's no need to pass a law to prevent hospitals from denying this treatment.

It compares fine with the current situation -- why is it unethical to deny a kidney transplant? If it goes against your beliefs and ideally you've signed a contract, does that mean you need not do it? That's an utter disgrace, if anything.

Tax payers includes people who don't support contraception and morning after pills.

But their support AGAINST those contraceptives would be what stops that applying to other people. Which is an invasion of human rights, no? So there we have it -- you can't rule it out, even for the majority, because it's within human rights.

If they came to a hospital just to be supplied with contraception, they can always go to a planned parenthood clinic; there's no stopping them there.

Because that's economically beneficial and convenient for everyone.

Tell me, what would be done about smoking or alcohol if this is to be allowed for conctraceptions? What about adult videos or certain movies? They can all be supported against and taken offense too -- contraceptions are familiar only to alcohol in that they can provide practical use beyond entertainment (or the placebo "relaxes me" cigarette thing).

- H
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Freakenstein covered most of you post for me, so I won't repeat what he said.

Hospitals aren't around every other corner you know.


Why not? Why aren't there more hospitals? My source could be mistaken, but from what I understand, there's so much red tape on hospitals that it's hard for new hospitals to be built.

Admittedly, I don't know too much about the legislation behind constructing new hospitals. Regardless, if hospitals are so few in number, then we should look into why they're so few in number and what the consequences are.

The doctor's personal beliefs are not the patients, and if the patient wants a certain treatment the doctor doesn't agree with, then either another doctor can deal with it or that doctor can suck it up and realize that pressing one's belief on another is wrong.


If a doctor doesn't want to pull a dead fetus out of a woman's body or kill another human being (regardless as to whether they're suffering or not), they shouldn't be forced to. If someone works towards a medical degree so that they can help other people, the last thing we should do is force them to do something they don't want to do (unless, as I previously mentioned, they sign a contract).

... Really?
There is a limit on what you should be allowed to exclude, you have responsibilities as a Doctor, or any medical practitioner.


Should there be a limit? If so, who should determine that limit?

We should let hospitals decide on what that limit is. If people aren't happy with said limit, then they can take their business elsewhere. Keep in mind we're not talking about emergencies.

you have responsibilities as a Doctor, or any medical practitioner


As determined by the contract that they sign.

Would we permit this for a lawyer, judge, police officer or scientist? We all know that we would not.


If I go to someone and they say they won't do that but they will do this, then their responsibility is this, not that.

If I go to someone who says they won't do that, but they will do this, but they end up not doing this like they said they would, then there is an issue.

The idea behind abortions is one that should be nationally (preferably internationally but we all know that won't happened) clarified. Is it classed as killing if done before 3, 5 months? If so, then it can't really be allowed. It's not like there aren't alternatives either.


I do not believe in an all knowing entity, be it god or man. No person, no government, should ever have this kind of power.

I won't delve into this issue here because it would require that I explain my whole political philosophy.

A Hospital isn't a religious establishment, regardless of whether it's founders carry religious morals.


To me, this is like saying "You can't mix pickles and ice cream," in which case I would reply, "watch me." A hospital built on religious views is a hospital based off of religious views, regardless as to whether you support it or not.

If a hospital isn't a religious establishment, but there's a hospital that is a religious establishment, then either you're wrong or you believe the term "hospital" refers to a medical center that isn't established on religious views. If the latter, then you're merely arguing semantics.

I find it odd that you consider having all hospitals provide patients with what treatments they want imposing on freedom.


People have the freedom to choose which hospitals they go to and which treatments they desire but they should not have the freedom to demand a hospital does something they do not want to do. To say that people should have the freedom to demand hospitals provide certain treatments is like saying people should have the freedom to come into my house and take food out of my refrigerator.

Here's the general idea. The only freedoms that should be restricted are freedoms that impose on other person's freedoms and property. To say that patients should be free to force hospitals to provide certain treatments is the wrong kind of freedom that shouldn't be sought after. Hospitals should be free to offer whatever services they want, and in return, everyone else is free to choose whether they do business with this hospital. The only exception is during an emergency when one doesn't have time to make a choice, but I'm pretty sure emergencies alone don't support hospitals.

My point is, people may just go to the nearest hospital and be unaware that it would not offer something, because logically one would assume a hospital would offer such a basic treatment.


That person must then go to a different hospital. We don't force every grocery store to stock up on Macarons just so that someone wanting Macarons doesn't accidentally go to a store without Macarons.

As I said a few paragraphs back, when there aren't many hospitals in an area, then we must figure out why there aren't many hospitals in said area and what the impact of having so few hospitals is having on that specific area.

I think it would be Ok for religious hospitals to give selective treatments, assuming several things:

1. They receive no government funding. Receive government funding and be secular.
2. Have another secular hospital within a decent distance from the first hospital. This would mean that you don't have to go a hundred miles to find the operation you want.


Very well said. I would fully support this criteria.

Having said that, what exactly is the point of having a religious hospital? Why not just make a secular one, and increase the amount of people willing to come to it?


Nuns.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

The idea that a hospital wouldn't allow kidney transplants just doesn't sound like something that would happen.


If it was a hospital established by Jehovah's Witnesses that could very well happen. There are also Asian beliefs that have things against such procedures.

People have the freedom to choose which hospitals they go to and which treatments they desire but they should not have the freedom to demand a hospital does something they do not want to do. To say that people should have the freedom to demand hospitals provide certain treatments is like saying people should have the freedom to come into my house and take food out of my refrigerator.


I fail to see how this comparison works.

Here's the general idea. The only freedoms that should be restricted are freedoms that impose on other person's freedoms and property. To say that patients should be free to force hospitals to provide certain treatments is the wrong kind of freedom that shouldn't be sought after. Hospitals should be free to offer whatever services they want, and in return, everyone else is free to choose whether they do business with this hospital. The only exception is during an emergency when one doesn't have time to make a choice, but I'm pretty sure emergencies alone don't support hospitals.


So one doesn't have the freedom to say what should and shouldn't be done to their body?
NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

Doctor's have a duty to provide their services and products to their patients, no? It would be dumb to train and employ them otherwise.


Exactly, which is why some doctors don't provide certain services and products. The duty of a doctor should be determined by hospitals hiring them, not politicians who know nothing about medicine or how to run a business.

The hypothetical situation that is possible thanks to Religion bares weight, because it's possible thanks to religion.


Even if the hypothetical situation did happen, we must figure out how to solve the problem without resorting to new laws that effect EVERYONE. If a few hospitals decide to stop providing kidney transplants, we can't create a law that would effects hundreds of thousands of hospitals. This is ESPECIALLY true when it comes to federal law.

It compares fine with the current situation -- why is it unethical to deny a kidney transplant? If it goes against your beliefs and ideally you've signed a contract, does that mean you need not do it? That's an utter disgrace, if anything.


It's a disgrace for me to draw pictures of Muhammad too.

But yeah, you got it. If a doctor signs a contract that states that he doesn't have to provide morning after pills, then he doesn't have to. If this is such a big problem, then the hospital won't hire him until he changes his mind.

But their support AGAINST those contraceptives would be what stops that applying to other people. Which is an invasion of human rights, no? So there we have it -- you can't rule it out, even for the majority, because it's within human rights.


As I said before:

People have the freedom to choose which hospitals they go to and which treatments they desire but they should not have the freedom to demand a hospital does something they do not want to do. To say that people should have the freedom to demand hospitals provide certain treatments is like saying people should have the freedom to come into my house and take food out of my refrigerator.

Here's the general idea. The only freedoms that should be restricted are freedoms that impose on other person's freedoms and property. To say that patients should be free to force hospitals to provide certain treatments is the wrong kind of freedom that shouldn't be sought after. Hospitals should be free to offer whatever services they want, and in return, everyone else is free to choose whether they do business with this hospital. The only exception is during an emergency when one doesn't have time to make a choice, but I'm pretty sure emergencies alone don't support hospitals.
deathbewithyou
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deathbewithyou
534 posts
Nomad

Just so people know. These hospitals do not belong to the government and the owner of the hospital has a right to chose what they can and cannot do. If the christian hospital doesn't want to deal with killing a Fetus they have the right to do so. The government can't force a private hospital against what they think is wrong.

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