Forums → WEPR → Evolutionism or creationism

And here is another link - more specifically about beneficial mutation in Humans

Hmm I just came back to read the last few pages that are new since I have been here. I see the frustration in arguing with someone who doesn't understand evolution. About 20 pages ago I was arguing with two of these people....

You guys are covering it well, but I no longer see the point in arguing evolution with people who don't know what it is.

That may be so but when someone claims there is no evidence for Evolution - sometimes you just gotta go overboard and post all the evidence you can gather.

On a related note, anyone care to refute all of the links Mage and I have posted?

Let's see....

The brain thing has no sources - Can't trust that
The Femur isn't forced to be A. Human or B. Real
The T-rex thing can be debunked owing to them having 6-inch long SERRATED teeth - are you telling me they used them to crack open some coconuts, or something?

The rest of the so-called proof is just old-hat performed by Young-Earth and Creation scientists and is all easily debunked. In fact, some of Mage's links cover the topics quite well. Take A look.

evolutionism

Everything said on that site is supported by solid proof,

I've given my side of the story, and I've presented irrefutable proof that evolution cannot be possible.

Ill go over it's idiocy one peace at a time.

"If we learned something new every second of our lives, it would take three million years to exhaust the capacity of the human brain." -Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Video Series

Ok.. let me get this straight. The Word of God says we were created with Human bodies that are designed to live forever. Science has recently proven that if we were to learn something new every second, we would take well over 3 millions years to exhaust the memory capacity of our &quotost flood" brains. (Pre-flood brains were 3 times larger) On the other hand... Evolutionists say things evolve after there is a need for change.

Question... How is it possible for us to have a brain that could hold enough info to last over 3 millions years, when all we can live up to is 90 years? (Don't expect and answer from them.)

# The roots of T-Rex were only 2 inches deep. Had he bit into the hide of another dinosaur he would have lost teeth

# They cut a tooth in half of an unearthed T-Rex and found in deeply gorged with CHLOROPHYLL! That's right, Chlorophyll is the main substance found in PLANTS not meat!

Now.. before proclaiming you MUST eat meat because the proteins in meat will help you to gain weight, look around on planet earth for a moment. Look at all the HUGE animals like cows... horses.. hippos.. elephants... rhinos... etc. What do THEY eat? That's right. PLANTS!

Evolutionists have constructed the Geologic Column in order to illustrate the supposed progression of &quotrimitive" life forms to "more complex" systems we observe today. Yet, "since only a small percentage of the earth's surface obeys even a ⦠portion of the geologic columnâ¦the claim of their having taken place to form a continuum of rock/life/timeâ¦over the earth is therefore a fantastic and imaginative contrivance.1" "The lack of transitional series cannot be explained as being due to the scarcity of material. The deficiencies are real, they will never be filled."2 This supposed column is actually saturated with &quotolystrate fossils" (fossils extending from one geologic layer to another) that tie all the layers to one time-frame. "To the unprejudiced, the fossil record of plants is in favor of special creation."

Dr. Thomas Barnes, Emeritus Professor of Physics at the University of Texas at El Paso, has published the definitive work in this field.4 Scientific observations since 1829 have shown that the earth's magnetic field has been measurably decaying at an exponential rate, demonstrating its half-life to be approximately 1,400 years. In practical application its strength 20,000 years ago would approximate that of a magnetic star. Under those conditions many of the atoms necessary for life processes could not form. These data demonstrate that earth's entire history is young, within a few thousand of years.

The Biblical record clearly describes a global Flood during Noah's day. Additionally, there are hundreds of Flood traditions handed down through cultures all over the world. 5 M.E. Clark and Henry Voss have demonstrated the scientific validity of such a Flood providing the sedimentary layering we see on every continent. 6 Secular scholars report very rapid sedimentation and periods of great carbonate deposition in earth's sedimentary layers..7 It is now possible to prove the historical reality of the Biblical Flood.8

World population growth rate in recent times is about 2% per year. Practicable application of growth rate throughout human history would be about half that number. Wars, disease, famine, etc. have wiped out approximately one third of the population on average every 82 years. Starting with eight people, and applying these growth rates since the Flood of Noah's day (about 4500 years ago) would give a total human population at just under six billion people. However, application on an evolutionary time scale runs into major difficulties. Starting with one "couple" just 41,000 years ago would give us a total population of 2 x 1089. 9The universe does not have space to hold so many bodies.

Physicist Robert Gentry has reported isolated radio halos of polonuim-214 in crystalline granite. The half-life of this element is 0.000164 seconds! To record the existence of this element in such short time span, the granite must be in crystalline state instantaneously.10 This runs counter to evolutionary estimates of 300 million years for granite to form.

Man-made artifacts - such as the hammer in Cretaceous rock, a human sandal print with trilobite in Cambrian rock, human footprints and a handprint in Cretaceous rock â" point to the fact that all the supposed geologic periods actually occurred at the same time in the recent past.11

Physicist Melvin Cook, Nobel Prize medallist found that helium-4 enters our atmosphere from solar wind and radioactive decay of uranium. At present rates our atmosphere would accumulate current helium-4 amounts in less than 10,000 years.12

Astronomical estimates of the distance to various galaxies gives conflicting data. 13The Biblical Record refers to the expansion of space by the Creator14. Astrophysicist Russell Humphries demonstrates that such space expansion would dilate time in distant space.15 This could explain a recent creation with great distances to the stars.

A living cell is so awesomely complex that its interdependent components stagger the imagination and defy evolutionary explanations. A minimal cell contains over 60,000 proteins of 100 different configurations.16 The chance of this assemblage occurring by chance is 1 in 10 4,478,296 .17

The human brain is the most complicated structure in the known universe.18 It contains over 100 billion cells, each with over 50,000 neuron connections to other brain cells.19 This structure receives over 100 million separate signals from the total human body every second. If we learned something new every second of our lives, it would take three million years to exhaust the capacity of the human brain. 20 In addition to conscious thought, people can actually reason, anticipate consequences, and devise plans â" all without knowing they are doing so.21

I think creationism is not being talked about enough in this thread. It's half the topic so it should get half the space. But the atheists are ignoring it. There's no justifying there tricks.

You atheists tell us you don't believe in any religions but go walking around here with demonic and evil-looking avatars treating GOD like a four-letter word. Then you expect people to think you know something about Creationism to say it's not right. If that wasn't so sad and arrogantly biased I'd laugh at all of it!

I think creationism is not being talked about enough in this thread. It's half the topic so it should get half the space. But the atheists are ignoring it. There's no justifying there tricks.

You atheists tell us you don't believe in any religions but go walking around here with demonic and evil-looking avatars treating GOD like a four-letter word. Then you expect people to think you know something about Creationism to say it's not right. If that wasn't so sad and arrogantly biased I'd laugh at all of it!

I think creationism is not being talked about enough in this thread. It's half the topic so it should get half the space. But the atheists are ignoring it. There's no justifying there tricks.

You atheists tell us you don't believe in any religions but go walking around here with demonic and evil-looking avatars treating GOD like a four-letter word. Then you expect people to think you know something about Creationism to say it's not right. If that wasn't so sad and arrogantly biased I'd laugh at all of it!

Pfft, just because we believe in one less God than you Yie. Honestly though, if you wanna believe in a deity or two that's fine by me - be as vocal about it as you like. But don't expect us to be quiet, we all have equal voice on such a far-reaching topic, trying to silence those who don't share your views is nothing less then infringing basic human rights to Free Speech.

I agree we should stop arguing, but not that I don't know what evolution is all about. I perfectly understand it. It's just false, that's all.

This collects solid proof of creationism.

Everything said on that site is supported by solid proof, unlike most of the &quotroof" given for evolution so far. Species can have mutations, but they are very rare, and despite the mutations they are still the same species. Therefore, it is illogical and scientifically impossible for a creature to mutate and create it's own seperate species.

1. New species have arisen in historical times. For example:

* A new species of mosquito, isolated in London's Underground, has speciated from Culex pipiens (Byrne and Nichols 1999; Nuttall 1998).

* Helacyton gartleri is the HeLa cell culture, which evolved from a human cervical carcinoma in 1951. The culture grows indefinitely and has become widespread (Van Valen and Maiorana 1991).

A similar event appears to have happened with dogs relatively recently. Sticker's sarcoma, or canine transmissible venereal tumor, is caused by an organism genetically independent from its hosts but derived from a wolf or dog tumor (Zimmer 2006; Murgia et al. 2006).

* Several new species of plants have arisen via polyploidy (when the chromosome count multiplies by two or more) (de Wet 1971). One example is Primula kewensis (Newton and Pellew 1929).

2. Incipient speciation, where two subspecies interbreed rarely or with only little success, is common. Here are just a few examples:

* Rhagoletis pomonella, the apple maggot fly, is undergoing sympatric speciation. Its native host in North America is Hawthorn (Crataegus spp.), but in the mid-1800s, a new population formed on introduced domestic apples (Malus pumila). The two races are kept partially isolated by natural selection (Filchak et al. 2000).
* The mosquito Anopheles gambiae shows incipient speciation between its populations in northwestern and southeastern Africa (Fanello et al. 2003; Lehmann et al. 2003).
* Silverside fish show incipient speciation between marine and estuarine populations (Beheregaray and Sunnucks 2001).

3. Ring species show the process of speciation in action. In ring species, the species is distributed more or less in a line, such as around the base of a mountain range. Each population is able to breed with its neighboring population, but the populations at the two ends are not able to interbreed. (In a true ring species, those two end populations are adjacent to each other, completing the ring.) Examples of ring species are

* the salamander Ensatina, with seven different subspecies on the west coast of the United States. They form a ring around California's central valley. At the south end, adjacent subspecies klauberi and eschscholtzi do not interbreed (Brown n.d.; Wake 1997).
* greenish warblers (Phylloscopus trochiloides), around the Himalayas. Their behavioral and genetic characteristics change gradually, starting from central Siberia, extending around the Himalayas, and back again, so two forms of the songbird coexist but do not interbreed in that part of their range (Irwin et al. 2001; Whitehouse 2001; Irwin et al. 2005).
* the deer mouse (Peromyces maniculatus), with over fifty subspecies in North America.
* many species of birds, including Parus major and P. minor, Halcyon chloris, Zosterops, Lalage, Pernis, the Larus argentatus group, and Phylloscopus trochiloides (Mayr 1942, 182-183).
* the American bee Hoplitis (Alcidamea) producta (Mayr 1963, 510).
* the subterranean mole rat, Spalax ehrenbergi (Nevo 1999).

4. Evidence of speciation occurs in the form of organisms that exist only in environments that did not exist a few hundreds or thousands of years ago. For example:
* In several Canadian lakes, which originated in the last 10,000 years following the last ice age, stickleback fish have diversified into separate species for shallow and deep water (Schilthuizen 2001, 146-151).
* Cichlids in Lake Malawi and Lake Victoria have diversified into hundreds of species. Parts of Lake Malawi which originated in the nineteenth century have species indigenous to those parts (Schilthuizen 2001, 166-176).
* A Mimulus species adapted for soils high in copper exists only on the tailings of a copper mine that did not exist before 1859 (Macnair 1989).

There is further evidence that speciation can be caused by infection with a symbiont. A Wolbachia bacterium infects and causes postmating reproductive isolation between the wasps Nasonia vitripennis and N. giraulti (Bordenstein and Werren 1997).

5. Some young-earth creationists claim that speciation is essential to explain Noah's ark. The ark was not roomy enough to carry and care for all species, so speciation is invoked to explain how the much fewer "kinds" aboard the ark became the diversity we see today. Also, some species have special needs that could not have been met during the flood (e.g., fish requiring fresh water). Creationists assume that they evolved from other, more tolerant organisms since the Flood. (Woodmorappe 1996)

then even contemplating that perhaps 2 humans of the same exact sexual species were created is just downright silly.

Therefore, in order for a new species to even survive, an entire food chain would have to appear all at once.

(I know that they didn't go right from bacteria/spores/soup/whatever to humans [according to you],

The chances of even one species evolving is ridiculously low, needless to say the chance of it evolving from small bacteria/spores/soup/whatever is so low that you would die before seeing the last zero in the decimal. Now imagine not only one species evolving from the bacteria/spores/soup/whatever but so many species that we haven't even discovered all of them yet. Plus there are the different animal domains, kingdoms, phylums, etc. which have incredibly different traits. The chances of that happening is non-existent.

Besides, this argument will be endless. I won't change your beliefs unless you convert to Christianity or a religion that supports Creationism.

Just like if a man and a woman who both had bulbous eyes mated, that doesn't mean their kids will, and their kids kids will, and so on. They still have a genetic background of people without bulbous eyes, and therefore those mutations are not definitely passed down to future generations.

Very sorry for the triple post.

Different granite, and I have never actually heard this argument before.