ForumsWEPRThe Religion Debate Thread

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nichodemus
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nichodemus
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Grand Duke

So yeah, our threads on religion have long since died out, so I figured it would be time to start afresh here!

Do you believe God exists (I know almost all of you don't)? Do you feel religion is important today? Is it a force for good? Discuss everything related to that here!

I'm going to start the ball rolling:

We all know about the rise of ISIS and the terrible acts it perpetuates. Does that show that Islam and religion in general is an awful concept? Is it the people who twist it? Or is it fundamentally an evil force?

Roping in the WERP frequenters
@MageGrayWolf @Kasic @Hahiha @FishPreferred @Doombreed @09philj

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lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Farmer

HAPPY 4TH OF JULY BY THE WAY YPU GUYS!!!

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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Duke

Obeying implies that the subject chooses to follow those commands. If they don't choose to obey, then God has every right to destroy them.
No He doesn't. If He just wanted them to choose to obey, He could have made them desire obeying Him.

And when did I say that?
I don't know if you did. Please answer the question.

Temptations come from your own desires. That's why I take responsibility for my actions.
Okay, where do these desires come from?

He definitely did not coerce you though. In the analogy I said that he specifically told you not to go on his lawn and you did it anyway. It's also very avoidable because there are other places other than his lawn that you can step on. Step somewhere else.
Which is why it's a very poor analogy. It doesn't compare in any way. I wasn't created or designed by this guy, nor was the environment in which I was raised.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

Can you quote me on that please?

It's in the post just before that remark. You didn't use the words 'inconsequential' nor 'meaningless', those were mine. But it's basically what it would boil down to.

Check this out. If I'm really concerned about my salvation, I want to know if God has started a good work in me because they go hand in hand. When you confess your sins, you also repent meaning you turn away from your sin. That's already one indication that God is transforming you. So if I don't see any change in my life, no repentance, no worship, then I'm probably not saved. I need to repent.

Which is it? Now you're saying salvation goes hand in hand with God's work in ourselves/God transforming ourselves, which is at odds with both the whole accepting Christ thing and with judging us based on our acts.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Farmer

No He doesn't. If He just wanted them to choose to obey, He could have made them desire obeying Him.
Maybe it's not that simple to just give creation desire.

I don't know if you did. Please answer the question.
Evil is, from what I understand, anything that is not good. Because God is perfectly good, I think it's safe to assume that evil is anything that goes against God's will.

Okay, where do these desires come from?
That's a good question because my initial answer was that they come from our fallen state, but that might result in a circular argument. Let's consider this if you will. We are fallen creatures because Adam and Eve sinned. Where did their desire to sin come from then? If I were to say that it came from their desire to be like God, where did that desire come from? From this point, I would like to believe that it comes from the fact that God is just so frickin glorious lol. But I'm not a theologian. I'll be struggling with this question.

Which is why it's a very poor analogy. It doesn't compare in any way. I wasn't created or designed by this guy, nor was the environment in which I was raised.
I see your point. I guess it comes down to the desire argument then, would you agree? If it isn't God's job to create a desire in us to obey Him, then the analogy still stands.

It's in the post just before that remark. You didn't use the words 'inconsequential' nor 'meaningless', those were mine. But it's basically what it would boil down to.
I disagree. Our actions (as well as our intentions) matter greatly. Our sins don't matter for sure, but when we worship God, I believe that we will be rewarded in heaven. That's why my actions matter.

Which is it? Now you're saying salvation goes hand in hand with God's work in ourselves/God transforming ourselves, which is at odds with both the whole accepting Christ thing and with judging us based on our acts.
To be honest, now I'm confused haha. Would you care to walk me through what you're trying to say? I think it's my fault, but I would appreciate your help.
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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Duke

Maybe it's not that simple to just give creation desire.
Well, we're talking about a universe-shaping liminal being of supposedly infinite power and wisdom, so I fail to see how a minor modification to the reward pathways in a creature's brain could be too complex.

Evil is, from what I understand, anything that is not good. Because God is perfectly good, I think it's safe to assume that evil is anything that goes against God's will.
In that case, obedience itself must be good. Therefore, evil didn't come from disobeying Him; it was just present in the act of disobeying Him.

If I were to say that it came from their desire to be like God, where did that desire come from? From this point, I would like to believe that it comes from the fact that God is just so frickin glorious lol. But I'm not a theologian. I'll be struggling with this question.
Okay, but;
1 There wouldn't be any need for such a desire (it obviously doesn't make life any easier in paradise), and it doesn't follow that anything with a will of its own simply must have a desire to be like Him. If He's the one holding the blueprints to our minds' workings, it stands to reason that such a desire should be left out under these circumstances.
2 If wanting to emulate your hero (whom you exist to love and worship) is so corrupting that it forces Him to plunge your entire species into hardship and strife, maybe He should have thought ahead and designed us to be more content with what we are.

I see your point. I guess it comes down to the desire argument then, would you agree?
Yes.

If it isn't God's job to create a desire in us to obey Him, then the analogy still stands.
Not really, because it also isn't His job to create desires which lead us to disobey Him, nor is it His job to make rules that conflict with the desires He created.
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Farmer

Well, we're talking about a universe-shaping liminal being of supposedly infinite power and wisdom, so I fail to see how a minor modification to the reward pathways in a creature's brain could be too complex.
It's more than reward pathways though. Why would I, being a creature under the influence of connections in my brain, choose to turn away from watching porn and wanking off when it gives me pleasure and relief from stress? Maybe that's not what I should be arguing about cuz I could be wrong. What I meant when I said that it's not that simple is that the implications of changing someones desires are not that simple. That would be limiting someones free will.

In that case, obedience itself must be good. Therefore, evil didn't come from disobeying Him; it was just present in the act of disobeying Him.
I don't see this as evidence against my views.

1 There wouldn't be any need for such a desire (it obviously doesn't make life any easier in paradise), and it doesn't follow that anything with a will of its own simply must have a desire to be like Him. If He's the one holding the blueprints to our minds' workings, it stands to reason that such a desire should be left out under these circumstances.
Like I said, I'm not a theologian. I will get back to you on my research.

2 If wanting to emulate your hero (whom you exist to love and worship) is so corrupting that it forces Him to plunge your entire species into hardship and strife, maybe He should have thought ahead and designed us to be more content with what we are.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to be like God. The fact that they disobeyed God, with the help of the serpent's lies I should add, is what caused their downfall. By eating the fruit, they wouldn't actually be like God as the serpent said.

Not really, because it also isn't His job to create desires which lead us to disobey Him, nor is it His job to make rules that conflict with the desires He created.
1 God gave us the rules to show how absolutely righteous He is. In the case of Adam and Eve, God gave them the rule not to eat the fruit in order to give then a chose.
2 If He didn't plant those desires, why is God responsible for out actions?
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

I disagree. Our actions (as well as our intentions) matter greatly. Our sins don't matter for sure, but when we worship God, I believe that we will be rewarded in heaven. That's why my actions matter.

That is not what you implied when you said only accepting Christ was required to be saved.

To be honest, now I'm confused haha. Would you care to walk me through what you're trying to say? I think it's my fault, but I would appreciate your help.

Then we're two As I wrote above, you seemed to imply one only needs to accept Christ to be saved. That, and the good acts thing, which you do not agree with (or do you?) imply an action from your side, God merely 'rewarding' you. But then, in the previous post, you suddenly mentioned this 'God's good work in ourselves', saying one would need to see if God was transforming themselves and that this was going hand in hand with salvation. All of a sudden it appeared as if we had no say in the matter at all, and it was actually God's work that was saving us. Which implies God and God alone chooses who will be saved and who won't based on the amount of work He puts in us. Do you see the problem?
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Farmer

That is not what you implied when you said only accepting Christ was required to be saved.
No, I just didn't bring up the part where there are rewards in heaven.

Then we're two. As I wrote above, you seemed to imply one only needs to accept Christ to be saved. That, and the good acts thing, which you do not agree with (or do you?) imply an action from your side, God merely 'rewarding' you. But then, in the previous post, you suddenly mentioned this 'God's good work in ourselves', saying one would need to see if God was transforming themselves and that this was going hand in hand with salvation. All of a sudden it appeared as if we had no say in the matter at all, and it was actually God's work that was saving us. Which implies God and God alone chooses who will be saved and who won't based on the amount of work He puts in us. Do you see the problem?
Something went wrong when we were communicating. Probably my fault. I apologize. What happens is that God chooses us regardless of our works. When we are saved, we have to be regenerated first and being regenerated is God's work. Then we are to repent. He who started a good work in you will bring it to completion. After we are saved, we can be rewarded for our good works. Does that make more sense? :/
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

No, I just didn't bring up the part where there are rewards in heaven.

Isn't heaven itself the reward? Can you be saved without repenting and getting rewards? Would that mean heaven is a two-class system? Why is that additional incentive/hurdle, depending on how you see it, even necessary?

Does that make more sense? :/

I, guess? More than mentioning the individual bits separately did, at least. Though I wonder what you mean by 'God chooses us' regardless of our works. Why would He choose, and based on what criteria, if the (false) choice - to accept Christ - supposedly lies with us?
lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Farmer

Isn't heaven itself the reward? Can you be saved without repenting and getting rewards? Would that mean heaven is a two-class system? Why is that additional incentive/hurdle, depending on how you see it, even necessary?
You can't be getting rewards if you don't repent because that means you're still disobeying God. I guess it would be a 2-class system. It's necessary because some people wouldn't do it if it wasn't there. This is also something I have to think about because it's a secondary issue I haven't really worried about until now.

I, guess? More than mentioning the individual bits separately did, at least. Though I wonder what you mean by 'God chooses us' regardless of our works. Why would He choose, and based on what criteria, if the (false) choice - to accept Christ - supposedly lies with us?
Really, because of our fallen state, no one can choose to accept Christ. Only if God regenerates us can we choose Him. In that case, I would like to believe that at the moment God regenerates us, our strongest inclinations point toward accepting Christ. The action of God to regenerate us is why we give Him the credit of svaing us. He is the one who gives mercy to those He gives mercy.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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Regent

But, doesn't that mean that we don't have a say in being saved after all, since we have to rely on God 'regenerating' us first? Is that what you mean by 'God chooses us'?

lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Farmer

Yeah. That's what I mean.

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
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Duke

It's more than reward pathways though. Why would I, being a creature under the influence of connections in my brain, choose to turn away from watching porn and wanking off when it gives me pleasure and relief from stress?
http://gen.thepatternisfull.com/media/templates/250/godzilla_facepalm.jpg
You can answer that yourself. You obviously have other wants and needs to fulfil.

What I meant when I said that it's not that simple is that the implications of changing someones desires are not that simple. That would be limiting someones free will.
It isn't about changing someone's desires. It's about designing people with the appropriate desires in the first place. If God snaps His fingers and a fully-formed human pops into existence, we should logically expect that its desires and aspirations are there because He made it that way, not because humans just always come with preexisting desires outside of His influence.

The fact that they disobeyed God, with the help of the serpent's lies I should add, is what caused their downfall. By eating the fruit, they wouldn't actually be like God as the serpent said.
Which still places the blame squarely on God. He didn't need to let that serpent in. He didn't have to seal that knowledge away in lovely delicious fruits. He had no justifiable reason to keep that knowledge from them to begin with. He could easily have reversed the effects and forgiven them on the spot. His test was a sham that He knew they would fail. He did it all anyway.

1 God gave us the rules to show how absolutely righteous He is. In the case of Adam and Eve, God gave them the rule not to eat the fruit in order to give then a chose.
Then He failed. His rules, as you stated, are effectively impossible for a mere human to follow.

2 If He didn't plant those desires, why is God responsible for out actions?
If He didn't, where the heck did they come from?

But, doesn't that mean that we don't have a say in being saved after all, since we have to rely on God 'regenerating' us first? Is that what you mean by 'God chooses us'?
Yeah. That's what I mean.
So you're essentially doomed to eternal ****ation if God declines to do that for you?
EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
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Jester

Would that mean heaven is a two-class system?

JW has something similar. 144000 of the most righteous will join God in heaven, while the rest live in paradise on earth.
Wiki

lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
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Farmer

It isn't about changing someone's desires. It's about designing people with the appropriate desires in the first place. If God snaps His fingers and a fully-formed human pops into existence, we should logically expect that its desires and aspirations are there because He made it that way, not because humans just always come with preexisting desires outside of His influence.
Changing, designing, whatever. Maybe it's not that simple.

Which still places the blame squarely on God. He didn't need to let that serpent in. He didn't have to seal that knowledge away in lovely delicious fruits. He had no justifiable reason to keep that knowledge from them to begin with. He could easily have reversed the effects and forgiven them on the spot. His test was a sham that He knew they would fail. He did it all anyway.
Just because He knew they would fail doesn't mean it was a sham. What if God did make us morally perfect just like Him? There would be nothing to compare with his own perfection. We certainly would not have the free will to choose whatever we want anymore. That also means God has no free will. But so what if God has no free will? He doesn't have to answer to anyone, so His actions don't matter. He could be a puppet for all we know, but at least we know God chooses good everytime. We have free will because God wants us to make a choice. Think about that for a second. Even though He knows what choices we are gonna make, it's still possible for us to have a free will. It's not like He is just gonna suddenly change our desires because that will limit our free will. And He's not going to design us to be perfect because that means we don't have free will anymore. That makes it seem like God is under the influence of a paradox of a perfect being then. But can a paradox exist in the real world? Does that question even make sense? I'm confused. I don't think my confusion limits the possibility of the existence of a perfect God though...

So you're essentially doomed to eternal ****ation if God declines to do that for you?
Yes.
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