Forums → WEPR → Building a Mosque at Ground Zero
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What do you think about this? I feel that it should not be built at ground zero because I find that extremely disrespectful to the families and victims of that infamous day.
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These things happened thousands of years ago, there isn't any memory of it, yes the hatred created from the MUTUAL killing still exists. However there is no 'mental scarring'.
That's what you think, it's ignorance you are displaying there. Trust me, they are still very much affected by them.
But I don't really care. Peace.
To be sure, Muslims are peaceful people, in my view, they built it to claim peace.
While I agree with you as to the reasoning behind this, it does not negate the fact that effect is decidedly quite different.
The Qu'ran doesn't encourage terrorism.
Then explain the 109 passages where it directs the faithful to wage war on the infidels, and claims that any believer that does not fight is less than the infidel?
While it may not be interpreted as promoting violence by most, it certainly has many passages that seem that way and will inevitably be construed as such.
one day you'll visit some Arab country and see for yourselves how stupid you were to think they were taught to kill.
I have been to several Arab nations. I have also have the privilege of attending mosque on several occasions. Please disregard the ignorant bigots and stick to facts. There are many places in the Qu'ran where it speaks of violence against non believers as a good thing.
While I agree that as a faith Islam does not overtly teach violence, the Qu'ran contains many passages that are seen that way when taken at face value. Just as the Bible and Torah do. No one is terribly different from the other.
nothing to do with the religion even if they use it as a motive.
That seems like a very ignorant statement. If religion is the motive then it has everything to do with religion.
it isn't really muslim its a new type of religion all together.
That's because the religion is called Islam, and these people are followers of Islam. They have called a Jihad, which is a holy war, much like the Christians of old called a Crusade. The only difference is that it is only a small minority of Islamic practicioners that have answered or even recognize this Jihad.
THE CRUSADES WERE A BARBARIC SLAUGHTER OF THE MUSLIM MANKIND WITH A RELIGIOUS EXCUSE BUT A POLITICAL AND ECONOMICAL MOTIVE.
Actually the first Crusade was called because the Muslim Saracens conquered the holy land, destroyed the churches, and forbade Christian pilgrims from visiting their holy areas. This prompted the Pope to call a Crusade to gather the armies of the Christian nations to retake the Holy Land in order to allow pilgrims to visit their sacred sites.
I don't know quite what went wrong between them, but I suspect it has a lot to do with all three religions having vying for the 'holy land'
A lot of it has to do with pride. If any of the religions admitted and recognized that the Holy Land held great importance to the other religions, it would be forced to recognize them as having legitimate claims to the area, as well as lending more validity to their faith. When your faith tells that only you are right and your god and holy areas are yours alone it is difficult to admit that another faith may be just as right.
i hate it how some stereotypical Americans just say how muslims are terrorists or something along the lines that muslims are bad.
Those aren't stereotypical americans as you put it. They are called bigots. And bigotry is not specific to americans.
These things happened thousands of years ago, there isn't any memory of it, yes the hatred created from the MUTUAL killing still exists. However there is no 'mental scarring'.
Agreed. If the memory of these actions and the hatred and intolerance resulting from it did not exist we would not be seeing the conflicts over the same issues that we see going on today.
That's what you think, it's ignorance you are displaying there.
Actually it's you who is showing ignorance. He never stated that the people aren't affected, he simply said that there is no 'mental scarring', which there cannot be. Mental scarring as the term is being used refers to psychological damage resulting from a traumatic experience.
These people were not alive during the crusades therefor any psychological damage is a result of current events, which are occurring due to the intolerance and hatred which has been perpetuated in the area partially as a result of the Crusades.
If religion is the motive then it has everything to do with religion.
I meant to say as a fake motive.
Those aren't stereotypical americans as you put it. They are called bigots. And bigotry is not specific to americans.
Isn't specific but is largely so due to the amount of ignorance in your teaching system. Some families teach they're kids that Muslims are all terrorists and so do some churches, it's horrible.
Agreed. If the memory of these actions and the hatred and intolerance resulting from it did not exist we would not be seeing the conflicts over the same issues that we see going on today.
That's kind of what I meant, I may have phrased it a bit wrong with the word 'scarred'. I translated it directly from the french version I had in my mind.
Isn't specific but is largely so due to the amount of ignorance in your teaching system. Some families teach they're kids that Muslims are all terrorists and so do some churches, it's horrible.
And I take it you have direct knowledge of our teaching system? Because based on your statement you seem to think you have first hand knowledge of what is taught in our educational system, our churches, and our families.
I think the actual explanation for your post is you are making comments based on personal opinion with absolutely no grounding in fact.
That's kind of what I meant, I may have phrased it a bit wrong with the word 'scarred'. I translated it directly from the french version I had in my mind.
If that's what you meant then why did you claim that the person that posted exactly that is ignorant? You obviously had no understanding of what was being said although you were quick to respond. Typically if you don't understand something you ask for clarification so that you do, not respond with no understanding. That is a display of ignorance, which you seem so ready to accuse others of even when they are not being ignorant in any way.
If that's what you meant then why did you claim that the person that posted exactly that is ignorant? You obviously had no understanding of what was being said although you were quick to respond. Typically if you don't understand something you ask for clarification so that you do, not respond with no understanding. That is a display of ignorance, which you seem so ready to accuse others of even when they are not being ignorant in any way.
I was seeing his comment from a different point of view, not having realised that you were talking about the literal form of scarred whereas I was reffering to the metaphorical term where generations would share the stories of the Crusades and the Christian hatred against Islam throughout their granchildren and would end up influencing today's view of the Muslim's against the western world.
Don't get so upset about a mis-understanding I had it's not big deal this is a forum. Though I realise this part is made for serious debate I am trying my best to keep within the guidelines of formal argumentation.
Don't get so upset about a mis-understanding I had it's not big deal this is a forum.
A misunderstanding is not a big deal. However when you begin throwing around insults and accusations because of your misunderstanding then it becomes an issue. A misunderstanding on your behalf is no license to belittle or insult others. And honestly most of the conversations you have been engaged in of late seem riddled with your misunderstandings. I would suggest that you refrain from debating an issue until you have at least some knowledge of the subject matter as well as the ability to understand simple terms.
A misunderstanding is not a big deal. However when you begin throwing around insults and accusations because of your misunderstanding then it becomes an issue. A misunderstanding on your behalf is no license to belittle or insult others. And honestly most of the conversations you have been engaged in of late seem riddled with your misunderstandings. I would suggest that you refrain from debating an issue until you have at least some knowledge of the subject matter as well as the ability to understand simple terms.
I know enough about the subject, but trust me with 5 languages juggling around my mind and the fact that it is past midnight here I get tired and that leads to me writing some things that are wrong sometimes. I love debating and I will continue and I hope that you understand this and will continue arguing with me. It's fun and to a certain extent very educative for both sides. And about the insults, sorry, I don't know why but sometimes it feels necessary to pop one into the conversation, you know what I mean.
OT: Since the immense majority of Muslims ( I can confidently say over 99.9% ) are not terrorists or do not in any way want to harm others, Americans should not interpret this to be disrespectful, but rather a sign of Diversity over a great and sorrowful action made by those who live to hate. Let them build it and find inner peace in their religion, if that is what they wish to do.
I can confidently say over 99.9%
Please refrain from pulling random statistics out of no where.
We have no idea how many terrorists there really are, as a result you cannot claim that 99.9% are not terrorists.
We have no idea how many terrorists there really are, as a result you cannot claim that 99.9% are not terrorists.
I am not claiming, I am saying out of my pure opinion. Time for a small lesson here.
If a person says ' I can confidently say ' that is opinion.
If a person says ' It can be said ' that is fact/a lie .
Hope that helped you (:
Let's do some simple math here:
The total Muslim Population in 2010 is 1.82 billion. (CIA FACT SHEETS)
For my opinion/claim to be wrong, over 0.1 of this population would have to be terrorists.
1,820,000,000 times 0.1 equals 182,000,000
So unless you are truly saying that there are over 182 Million Muslim Extremist Terrorists. I am right.
Since the immense majority of Muslims ( I can confidently say over 99.9% ) are not terrorists or do not in any way want to harm others
Actually that is not only way off, but unprovable. However based on numerous estimates, nearly 15% of Muslims are fundamentalists, which is the group that believes in and is called on to perform Jihad. Out of that 15% of Muslims, it is estimated that nearly half (6-8% of all Muslims) have ties to an Islamic terrorist group.
Americans should not interpret this to be disrespectful, but rather a sign of Diversity over a great and sorrowful action made by those who live to hate.
Yes you are so right here. Shame on Americans for being upset that worshipers of Allah attacked our country and then followers of the same deity want to erect a temple to him near the monument to that atrocious act. How dare they be offended.
Let them build it and find inner peace in their religion, if that is what they wish to do.
Hey, I'm all for people erecting temples to whatever deity they want. But sometimes you have to use a little common sense and have a little bit of compassion for others, especially in instances like this.
Is Allah going to be offended if this temple isn't erected on this exact spot? I doubt it. So why can't they build it a few miles down the road? Why does it have to be here? Because they want the attention. They feed off of the controversy that is being stirred up by this. These people knew that it was going to upset a lot of Americans, yet they are going forward with it anyway. To me that isn't the act of an apologetic group. That's the act of someone that wants to rub something in your face.
@sosolidclaws
Your math fails. 182 Million is 1% of 1.82 Billion, not 0.1%
Is Allah going to be offended if this temple isn't erected on this exact spot? I doubt it. So why can't they build it a few miles down the road? Why does it have to be here? Because they want the attention. They feed off of the controversy that is being stirred up by this. These people knew that it was going to upset a lot of Americans, yet they are going forward with it anyway. To me that isn't the act of an apologetic group. That's the act of someone that wants to rub something in your face.
You are definitely right there, I am simply trying to show why it would not be seen as disrespectful from a non-terrorist Muslim's point of view. If I were muslim I would be REALLY DEEPLY hurt (emotionally, let's get this literal form thing right this time by your comments though, kind of how I was when you talked about my country =/
OT: If the people vote yes, let them do it. A mosque can only bring Peace and Love.
Your math fails. 182 Million is 1% of 1.82 Billion, not 0.1%
Yes you are right, I did times 0.1 instead of 0.01, my bad there but you get the point. Its a big number ^^
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