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Theism and Atheism

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 2:33pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

Yes, God made us imperfect, probably because of angels being made perfect, and some of them irreversably turned away from God, thus becoming demons.

How is it our fault for sinning if we were made to be faulty?
Further more how could an angel make a bad decision if they were made perfect? If the are perfect and the best decision to make to stay with God then non of them should have turned away from God let along legions of them.

You probably mistake the two sides of laws: the sentences available for breaking a certain law can be changed, like removing a death penalty for certain crimes, and instating a long-term jail instead, while the definitions of crimes do not change, thus, homosexual actions are still sins or "crimes".

You said it doesn't change one iota. A change in sentence is still a change. There are also laws that many including the churches no longer follow as well such as not eating pork or shellfish. It really seems the Bible is a pick and choose of morals.

Who has left the world first, the one in Heaven or the one that ended up in Hell? However, in both cases the loving one will pray God for the other's salvation. If the loving one's love is true, his prayers will also be true and guided by love, and God will grant that person salvation. In case of the loving one to enter Heaven prior to the other one's leaving the world, the loving one's love is proven to be true, thus he will be heard.

So it really doesn't matter if I believe in God or not or even what sins I commit so long as I have someone going or in Heaven who will prayer for me to get in?

This association is wrong, since God constantly reminds His children about what not to do, and more so when the events were back there in the paradise, since Adam and Eve were a lot closer to God than the best of us are.

Last reminder was with what Jesus? Otherwise it's just the "children" telling either other. So no it isn't wrong.

He gives you signs of His presence and urges you to turn back to Him,

No he didn't give me any signs, at least non that I could possibly recognize as being from him, which he would know I wouldn't understand and would be as good as no sign at all.

and when a person dies, his book of life will be presented to him with full explanation of what choices he made that led him into the state of denying God. This book contains the entire set of information about the person in question, including his thoughts and hidden intentions, and by these thoughts, intentions and deeds will a person be judged.

Why would God need a book of my deeds and all if he already knows all this stuff? Also non of this answers the question of why God would make me knowing full well that I would make these decisions and end up in hell. 

Please read above in this post regarding temptations.

So God intended for us to sin? He made us flawed, put the temptation in the way, and knew Adam and Eve would fall for it easily.

Also on the tempt thing from God...

James 1:13 (KJV)
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Interesting how God clearly does yet it says he doesn't.

I'm not. And, you are tempting others to become sexually aroused by the pictures you provide. Remember that Jesus said: "Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes!"

So your making a claim that your not even willing to test to find out if it's even accurate. If I am correct then it shouldn't be possible for you to commit such a sin.

I'm not gay myself, but can't people be gay genetically and simply by choice?

As pointed out it's bee tried to get someone to be gay based on upbringing and it didn't work. It has to do more with the way the genes are expressed then the genetic makeup that determines homo or hetero sexuality.

Also I did state back there that God does not need to comply with binary logic, this in turn means that science, which is based on binary logic, cannot determine either God existing or God nonexisting. This statement hasn't been objected so far.

If we can't determine God exists or not then we have no reason to believe he does.

No they don't. Them being natural does not contradict with the statement "God exists".

Correct however it does refute many of the claims of the Bible.

LOL. Especially about prayer. Atheists just dismiss personal evidence of people who claim their prayers have been answered, and then you form such a statement.

That's because it's entirely subjective.  Accepting any such claims as evidence for God would be no better then accepting a schizophrenics delusions as evidence for what ever they see as being real.

I think it's safe to say you can disprove something if you cant prove it ever existing.

You can't prove a negative.
Here's a video better explaining.
James Randi Lecture @ Caltech - Cant Prove a Negative

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 2:36pm

MageGrayWolf

MageGrayWolf

9,691 posts

Knight

@vesperbot
I will transcribe the video for you, but I would rather not.

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 5:14pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,591 posts

LOL. Especially about prayer. Atheists just dismiss personal evidence of people who claim their prayers have been answered, and then you form such a statement.

Study on the effects of prayer... Needless to say, the results turned out, it didn't make a difference if the people were prayed for or not. (Hope the link works...)

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 6:27pm

dair5

dair5

2,479 posts

Well it's not like all christians belive that you get whatever you pray for. that's just rediculous. But if you don't try you can't win.

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 6:30pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,591 posts

Well it's not like all christians belive that you get whatever you pray for. that's just rediculous

I can agree with that, although receiving what you pray for often doesn't happen (Not something like praying for a good day the next day...something unlikely to happen anyways)

Whenever I hear of someone who says they got what they prayed for, all I have to do is look around and see all those who didn't.

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 7:29pm

Einfach

Einfach

1,433 posts

Therefore God is not included in a set of "all things" which is the universe, which can indeed be described by binary logic.

But I'm sure that you would place God in the set "that which exists", which is a set that logic DOES apply to.

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 7:35pm

Einfach

Einfach

1,433 posts

You can't prove a negative.
Here's a video better explaining.
James Randi Lecture @ Caltech - Cant Prove a Negative

Umm...yes you CAN prove a negative.  You're just not forced to if the opponent has the burden of proof.

Haven't you heard of reductio ad absurdum?  Or the principle of non-contradiction?
http://departments.bloomu.edu/philosoph … gative.pdf

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 8:08pm

driejen

driejen

427 posts

Umm...yes you CAN prove a negative.

The link you gave just gave says itself that inductive arguments for negatives can produce conclusions that are probable but not definite. I think the problem is that a lot of christian apologetics aren't satisfied with inductive arguments for the negative because they will cling to whatever unlikely loophole they can find. We cannot prove a negative to the extent that they will be satisfied, but that is not to say that it is not to satisfy ME, afterall I can walk out my door without fear of walking into an invisible saw even though there is theoretically a miniscule chance that there is an invisible saw there.

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 9:00pm

Kasic

Kasic

5,591 posts

Let's try to keep this PG-13 E1337...

Unfortunately for me, it seems Vesper is active when i'm asleep, so this thread keeps jumping 3-4 pages every night for me.

 

Posted Apr 5, '11 at 11:52pm

Einfach

Einfach

1,433 posts

We cannot prove a negative to the extent that they will be satisfied, but that is not to say that it is not to satisfy ME, afterall I can walk out my door without fear of walking into an invisible saw even though there is theoretically a miniscule chance that there is an invisible saw there.

Well, there are conditions for God, nonetheless, such as evolution.  But this doesn't disprove proving a negative (HAHA!!!) - you still can do it using reductio ad absurdum and others.

 
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