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thepyro222
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thepyro222
2,151 posts
Peasant

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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nonconformist
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nonconformist
1,101 posts
Nomad

YEAHHH Christian Pride...

vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

This sounds like an ingenius way of covering up a lie. We have examples of fictional people in these stories still not believing in God despite evidence being put forth. Now, because people are demanding evidence, believers can just say that "you will not accept the truth even if it is proven".
Just look at yourself, and if not satisfied, look at MGW. You might want to read this topic back from page ~20 up to ~150, to find out more such people. And yes, some people have troubles to accept the truth if (they think) it's unbearable.
Don't you think God could've saved a lot of people in the Civil War, once the idea of abolishing slavery was planted, by revealing himself as a booming voice in the sky with a physical form, and shouting, "Do not fight the most violent war in American history! I, your Christian God, declare that slavery is a sin."
Don't you think that demanding that God should do something for YOU is a sin? Regardless of deed.
Nobody can explain why good things happen to some and bad to others. I don't know why. That doesn't mean that I should assume without evidence or rational justification that it was your particular god, let alone any god.
Right, we cannot. And if we cannot, then there is an incompleteness in materialistic view of the world, that allows intereference of unknown forces. You are technically right about "rational justification", but you are effectively requesting a logical proof of God, this was already discussed and the conclusion was "one cannot prove or disprove God with logic." And you're using "let alone" the other way, it's better said "...that it was a god, let alone your particular god".
Most theists tend to be gnostic theists, claiming to know that there is a god, while the more open-minded theists tend to be agnostic theists, believing in a god but not claiming to know that there is a god.
Why do you link "open-minded" to "agnostic"? These are separate qualities.
Right, but most people are brainwashed into a religion, and if people belong to specific demoninations, it can be fairly supported that those attending are brainwashed every Sunday to continue a belief without evidence, when they might have otherwise seen the absurdity in it.
Well, I have met people who were brainwashed into gnostic atheism, aka commies, after all there are plenty of them still alive. But, you can't say "most" here, only "many", which is possible. Saying "most people" without clarification requires a great deal of all-knowingness to base, and you obviously lack the required ability. "Most people I have met" might do better.
without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations
And then you say "mind". No. While agreeing to the dictionary, I also have to help you notice that God, being omnipotent, is capable of viewing everything objectively, as they are, so morale provided by God will retain objectivity.
I the sun was actually moving rather than it just being some sort of optical illusion it would be visible everywhere, not just from a few kilometers away.
You are closed-minded here. You limit yourself to two possible cases, "actual movement" and "optical illusion", not accepting that there could be more possibilities.
Yes we can counter claims by pointing out contradictions, which is what we can do with the Bible.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/test.html
Picked this at first glance to that list, among any whimsical things there are, and found out the ye olde mixup of request and demand. Tempting God is demanding from Him, requesting is okay. So, there are contradictions there, go clarify them. *grins*
Kasic
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Kasic
5,556 posts
Jester

You are closed-minded here. You limit yourself to two possible cases, "actual movement" and "optical illusion", not accepting that there could be more possibilities.


Vesper...either the sun was moving, in which case, everyone on the planet who could currently see the sun would witness that movement, but movement of that scale would do such horrendus things to the orbits of all the planets, and since neither are the case, it was, if it even happened, an isolated incident. Which leaves that the sun did not move. So if the sun didn't move, and people near that area but not in it didn't see it, that leaves some sort of local atmospheric phenomena which caused that illusion. At this point you're arguing that the phenomena was caused by God, and that's as far as you can go. Do you think the Aurora Boreallis is caused by God all the time? That's certainly far more proven to occur and documented, why not claim God does that instead of some random thing.
Thrillology
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Thrillology
78 posts
Shepherd

Touching story.
But be careful out there, people for no reason at all hate Christians, especially Jewish people.
I do not, as I am a Christian, but it is a sick world.
Full of evil and wickedness, hardly anybody my age is as mature as me and never care about religion, politics along with many others.
So just be vigilant.
It isn't all fund and games, Satan of Hell will try to ruin your life.

Kasic
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Kasic
5,556 posts
Jester

But be careful out there, people for no reason at all hate Christians, especially Jewish people.
I do not, as I am a Christian, but it is a sick world.
Full of evil and wickedness, hardly anybody my age is as mature as me and never care about religion, politics along with many others.
So just be vigilant.
It isn't all fund and games, Satan of Hell will try to ruin your life


Way to regurgitate exactly what you're told, i'm sure your parents must be so proud...

Really, this is a perfect example of someone who's been brainwashed.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Vesper...either the sun was moving, in which case, everyone on the planet who could currently see the sun would witness that movement, but movement of that scale would do such horrendus things to the orbits of all the planets, and since neither are the case, it was, if it even happened, an isolated incident. Which leaves that the sun did not move. So if the sun didn't move, and people near that area but not in it didn't see it, that leaves some sort of local atmospheric phenomena which caused that illusion.
QED.
Do you think the Aurora Boreallis is caused by God all the time? That's certainly far more proven to occur and documented, why not claim God does that instead of some random thing.
Well, if something really unique happens, it's more likely to be caused by God than a relatively common event, though unusual in its qualities. However, I expect that both are caused by God, and a whole lot of less noticeable events are too caused by God. Anyway, science does its good at determining cause-and-effects and regularities, and the laws that make them happen so, still science cannot determine what caused laws to exist and be the way we observe them. So even if God's interference into a process is limited to initially designing laws for this to happen all the time, it's still there - unproven, of course. Hmm.
Really, this is a perfect example of someone who's been brainwashed.
Well, it's more of an example of someone who is young and impatient, and who is still using black-and-white painting over the world. This is normal however, in any case, including religion, to behave like this for some initial time.
Kasic
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Kasic
5,556 posts
Jester

QED.


Excuse me, but, where's the close minded part? I just eliminated it down to only 1 option, and you can either attribute it to God or not. That's it. Explain to me any other option, hmm?

Well, it's more of an example of someone who is young and impatient,


No, it's a perfect example of someone who took what they heard many times and believe it without having applied any of their own thought contrary to what they have heard, and have taken it to another level in near fannatical thinking of righteousness in "correcting" non-believers. You can see this attitude quite clearly in all his other posts.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
955 posts
Nomad

Excuse me, but, where's the close minded part? I just eliminated it down to only 1 option, and you can either attribute it to God or not. That's it. Explain to me any other option, hmm?
It can be, that this is no optical illusion but an apparition that uses the image of Sun as a standpoint. There were images displayed to the public, along with other non-visual effects like drying people's clothes, that was reported event-wide. This is of course attributed to God (by Church), you can try attributing this to UFO interaction or something more &quotrobable" or "reasonable", as MGW says.
You can see this attitude quite clearly in all his other posts.
Yes, I have seen this. There are people who are naturally inclined to be fanatics, and if told a belief, they will hold onto it with extreme attitude. Maybe that one is the one.
shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

The basis of Christianity is surrounded by faith in an intangible God that cannot be proven or disproven.

The basis of Common Decent is surrounded by trace evidence that proves or disproves a hypothesis.

Probably didn't come out right, but what I'm trying to say is neither side can disprove the other. No matter how hard it tries, each side can just deflect whatever blows are aimed at them with whatever they have to hold infront of their faces.

So can we stop debating?

BigP08
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BigP08
1,455 posts
Shepherd

And yes, some people have troubles to accept the truth if (they think) it's unbearable.

That doesn't refute my point. It doesn't matter if some people can't bear the truth; it matters if you believe that no proof is sufficient to convince atheists to convert. That's simply not true.
Don't you think that demanding that God should do something for YOU is a sin? Regardless of deed.

Convenient that asking God to do anything at all is a sin. It's almost like he doesn't exist...
Right, we cannot. And if we cannot, then there is an incompleteness in materialistic view of the world, that allows intereference of unknown forces. You are technically right about "rational justification", but you are effectively requesting a logical proof of God, this was already discussed and the conclusion was "one cannot prove or disprove God with logic."

Why do these unknown forces have to be beings? Why can't they be a simple order to the universe that we cannot understand rather than a higher power that, by most human morality, would be considered immoral?
I'm not saying you have to prove God using logic. But you should prove him through some means. If he reveals himself under certain conditions, reveal those conditions. I want this question answered for sure as much as the next guy.
Why do you link "open-minded" to "agnostic"? These are separate qualities.

Because agnosticism doesn't claim to know that there is or isn't a god, and admits ignorance on the subject. I thought that point was made clear.
still science cannot determine what caused laws to exist and be the way we observe them.

Science accepts that we cannot determine what caused laws to exist etc. Religion claims without evidence or justification that it knows what caused it.
shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

You can observe both.

You observe evidence of Common Decent the same way you observe a rock. (A little more complicated, though)

To observe God requires something else entirely. And even if you might observe him you can simply dismiss it.

So again, really no reason to debate a stalemate.

partydevil
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partydevil
5,132 posts
Jester

To observe God requires something else entirely


so what do i need to see god in real?
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,470 posts
Farmer

And yes, some people have troubles to accept the truth if (they think) it's unbearable.


I'm perfectly fine with accepting the truth. I just want sufficient evidence (evidence that's objective, testable, observable) before I accept what your claiming is true as true. This is what I've been saying from the start, so your little bit about not accepting the truth because you admittedly can't offer up such evidence is just an out and out lie on your part.


Don't you think that demanding that God should do something for YOU is a sin? Regardless of deed.


Aren't you basically asking God to do things when you pray?

Pretty sure Jesus had something to say about asking for things as well.

John 14:12-14 (NIV)
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father.
You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

It would seem we can ask anything we want and it will be done. Yet this isn't what we see happening. We get excuses that the answer is yes, later, or no. But that's not what it says.

Right, we cannot. And if we cannot, then there is an incompleteness in materialistic view of the world, that allows intereference of unknown forces.


That doesn't mean you get to insert God into the gaps of our knowledge and claim to know something you don't.

Well, I have met people who were brainwashed into gnostic atheism, aka commies, after all there are plenty of them still alive.


Communism and atheism aren't the same thing. God wasn't used quite often as a motivating factor with these groups.

For example what Nazi Germany had on their belt buckles.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/snapshot1.png

You are closed-minded here. You limit yourself to two possible cases, "actual movement" and "optical illusion", not accepting that there could be more possibilities.


We know optical illusions exist. We know that there are optical illusions that can cause the observed events. Since we can rule out the sun actually moving our next best option is an optical illusion. Jumping to a magical conclusion before ruling out such a possibility is just bad thinking.

Picked this at first glance to that list, among any whimsical things there are, and found out the ye olde mixup of request and demand. Tempting God is demanding from Him, requesting is okay. So, there are contradictions there, go clarify them. *grins*


They are asking for God to prove he is actually God and is there. Quite like how I and many other atheists have been ASKING for.

Well, if something really unique happens, it's more likely to be caused by God than a relatively common event, though unusual in its qualities. However, I expect that both are caused by God, and a whole lot of less noticeable events are too caused by God.


So you even attribute things we have naturalistic explanations for as being done by magic? And you going around calling others closed minding for not accepting your unproven, unverified, completely subjective claims as complete truth? That just sounds like something a con artist would request.

This is of course attributed to God (by Church)


Which we just have to take their(the churches) word for it. Like pretty much every claim with the religion.

Probably didn't come out right, but what I'm trying to say is neither side can disprove the other.


Scientific theories have to be falsifiable, this allows them to be modified or discarded with the introduction of new evidence. Religious beliefs however do not operate this way. They will hold on to the claim regardless of or even against the evidence presented. Another difference is with Science the conclusions flow from the evidence presented. While with religion you start with a conclusion then try to make everything fit that conclusions. This is just one way religious thinking so just intellectually dishonest.
shift4101
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shift4101
196 posts
Peasant

Scientific theories have to be falsifiable, this allows them to be modified or discarded with the introduction of new evidence. Religious beliefs however do not operate this way. They will hold on to the claim regardless of or even against the evidence presented. Another difference is with Science the conclusions flow from the evidence presented. While with religion you start with a conclusion then try to make everything fit that conclusions. This is just one way religious thinking so just intellectually dishonest.


Except the Bible has no fault in it, except the one science is creating. It's been here for at least 2,000 years, and in that time no one found any errors in it until Charles Darwin came up with the theory of Evolution. Hell, it wasn't even suggested that Jesus Christ didn't exist till the 19th century.

And with what you just said (I bolded it), there are holes in the idea of Common Decent. And the only hole in the Bible is the scientific idea of Common Decent.

Please, share your wisdom. What are the other ways my religion is dishonest to the pursuit of knowledge?
partydevil
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partydevil
5,132 posts
Jester

Except the Bible has no fault in it


hahahaha xD you must be a comedian.
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