Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
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Just because God knows what we will chose, does not mean we are not responsible for chosing the right path.
You're missing the point (which I made earlier) that if God is perfect, timeless, omnipotent, omnipresent, creator of our minds, and creator of our environment, then anything we do wrong is his sin at least as much as it is ours, and arguably more.
The reason being that if God knows how we will act before he made us, then he intentionally made us flawed to burn in Hell forever. At the very least this means that he cannot additionally be omnibenevolent.
But if God doesn't reveal himself to the non-believers, they will not believe, and he knows this. If they continue to be non-believers, regardless of how good or bad they were in the world, he will condemn them to a place where they will be tortured forever.
And that is why we are talking to you. Our purpose is to guide the lost sheep of the world back to our Father. If he wanted love, we would be in heaven where love is perfect. If he wanted obedience, we would be in heaven where there is no temptation, if he wanted praise, we would be in heaven where praise is unlimited.
But Jesus himself said this:
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Mathew 18:17
Then anything we do wrong is his sin at least as much as it is ours, and arguably more.
Adam and Eve fell on their own, with the temptation of the Devil. God did not cause this.
The reason being that if God knows how we will act before he made us, then he intentionally made us flawed to burn in Hell forever. At the very least this means that he cannot additionally be omnibenevolent.
Just because God knows what we will do and can influence our actions, doesn't me he does influence every little thing. As spiritual beings, we are granted the power of free will. You can either obey and believe, or disobey and ignore. It is up to you to decide.
And that is why we are talking to you. Our purpose is to guide the lost sheep of the world back to our Father. If he wanted love, we would be in heaven where love is perfect. If he wanted obedience, we would be in heaven where there is no temptation, if he wanted praise, we would be in heaven where praise is unlimited.
You understand that most non-believers do have a knowledge of the beliefs they are turning their backs on. There are exceptions, of course, but the ones I've encountered tend to know more about theism in general than the theists I encounter.
Let me make it simpler. Only evidence will convince most atheists to become theists. If this evidence comes in the form of physical proof or personal revelation (although there would have to be a way to prove that it was not an optical illusion), so be it. But without the evidence, all these non-believers, who aren't doing anything wrong but not assuming that God exists with no evidence, are going to be tortured forever. Do they deserve this?
Adam and Eve fell on their own, with the temptation of the Devil. God did not cause this.
But he let it happen. Didn't he know it would happen? If he did, then he didn't prevent it but he punished them anyway. If he didn't, then he is not all-powerful.
Just because God knows what we will do and can influence our actions, doesn't me he does influence every little thing. As spiritual beings, we are granted the power of free will. You can either obey and believe, or disobey and ignore. It is up to you to decide.
So things happen that don't go according to your God's will?
Let me set up this chain of logic (thank Matt Dillahunty for this one). Did God create Hell? (Yes) Did God create the rules of the universe including the criteria by which souls are judged? (Yes) Does anything happen that doesn't go according to God's will? (No) Then God is ultimately responsible for everything, including the people he sends to Hell.
personal revelation
That isn't going to happen over the internet.
But without the evidence, all these non-believers, who aren't doing anything wrong but not assuming that God exists with no evidence, are going to be tortured forever. Do they deserve this?
Let us say you created intelligent life. What would upset you more, them disobeying your commands or claiming you don't exist at all?
You need to understand that everyone disobey's God, whether they like it or not. Only by faith and grace will you be forgiven.
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Mathew 18:17
I forget, what does the bible say to do to Pagans? I think it had something to do with killing them...
Let us say you created intelligent life. What would upset you more, them disobeying your commands or claiming you don't exist at all?
1) If I made them to have free will and do what they deem right/necessary, who am I to get pissed when they actually DO that.
2) They couldn't very well say I didn't exist, because i'd be around. Of course after I died, then they would probably eventually believe it to just be a fairytale.
That isn't going to happen over the internet.
I never suggested that it would. I wasn't telling you to provide personal revelation. I was stating things that would probably convince an atheist that they should become a theist.
Let us say you created intelligent life. What would upset you more, them disobeying your commands or claiming you don't exist at all?
Neither of those things would upset me at all if I decided to hide from them, and I certainly wouldn't torture them forver for not knowing that I existed. Why should they have to obey me or know that I exist?
To help push you in the right direction, let's say I had kids, and then which one would upset me more?
In this instance, I would say denying my existence since I provide for them and love them unconditionally (I'm assuming this was the implied point, but I might be off).
This doesn't mean I get to torture them forever for not accepting me. That's not love or benevolence.
You need to understand that everyone disobey's God, whether they like it or not. Only by faith and grace will you be forgiven.
God made us flawed and then demands that we beg forgiveness and believe for no reason or he'll torture us forever. I'm feeling the love.
But he let it happen. Didn't he know it would happen? If he did, then he didn't prevent it but he punished them anyway. If he didn't, then he is not all-powerful.
To have stopped us would have taken away our free will.
So things happen that don't go according to your God's will?
Don't you worry, everything is set into motion that allows him to execute his will perfectly.
Did God create Hell? (Yes) Did God create the rules of the universe including the criteria by which souls are judged? (Yes) Does anything happen that doesn't go according to God's will? (No) Then God is ultimately responsible for everything, including the people he sends to Hell.
Man is not judged on the basis of God's foreknowledge.
Man is not judged by anything that is in the sealed Book of Life.
Man is judged by what is written in other, different books.
I forget, what does the bible say to do to Pagans? I think it had something to do with killing them...
Back in Bible times, Pagans were people who worshipped false gods. Pagans were viewed with utter comtempt, not because of who they were, but because of how they lived.
Pagans were "living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry" (1 Peter 4:3 NIV).
To have stopped us would have taken away our free will.
I UNDERSTAND!! Would you rather have free will but be tortured forever for making the wrong choice, or be forced to make the choice that doesn't get you tortured forever?
Don't you worry, everything is set into motion that allows him to execute his will perfectly.
Then everything is his fault if he knows how to stop evil and chooses to instead become it.
Man is not judged on the basis of God's foreknowledge.
Man is not judged by anything that is in the sealed Book of Life.
Man is judged by what is written in other, different books.
Can you just try to understand the point I'm making, please? I'm showing you why God can't be all the things that you are defending him to be (omnipresent, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, nothing happening against his will). You just keep dancing around the question by saying things like:
Just because God knows what we will do and can influence our actions, doesn't me he does influence every little thing.
And then when I challenge the point you go back to:
Don't you worry, everything is set into motion that allows him to execute his will perfectly.
Which is it? Is he in complete control, and therefore not omnibenevolent? Or is he not in complete control, and therefore not all-powerful?
I UNDERSTAND!! Would you rather have free will but be tortured forever for making the wrong choice, or be forced to make the choice that doesn't get you tortured forever?
Thank you for the sarcasm. What would your choice be, may I ask?
To everything else you said,
The Book of Life
The Book of Life
The Book of Life
Your fate is SEALED. But god will not use what use what is in the Book of Life to judge your soul. JUST READ WHAT I LINK TO.
Thank you for the sarcasm. What would your choice be, may I ask?
I'll tell you my choice (even though you didn't tell me yours). I would rather lose my free will. Why?
Because I don't actually have it in a way that is actually beneficial. I can decide to make a different choice, but I get tortured for it. Either way I basically have to make the one choice or I get tortured forever.
Your fate is SEALED. But god will not use what use what is in the Book of Life to judge your soul. JUST READ WHAT I LINK TO.
I understand the book of life, and I think it is an unbelievably evil idea. My fate is sealed before I was born. Explain to me why this is a moral princple. Explain why how God can possibly have a shred of morality if he creates people to sin and then burn in Hell forever. It doesn't matter if they had free will. He designed them to be tortured forever.
I understand the book of life, and I think it is an unbelievably evil idea. My fate is sealed before I was born. Explain to me why this is a moral princple. Explain why how God can possibly have a shred of morality if he creates people to sin and then burn in Hell forever. It doesn't matter if they had free will. He designed them to be tortured forever.
I'm not even going to talk to you. You don't read what I link to, you reply based on an idea you have about it that you got from probably skimming the first paragraph of the wiki page.
Read this, then.
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