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"You think the Nazis were bad, I think the USA was equally bad."

I'm sorry for immediately launching into the pedantic, but mind = blown. I'm going to attempt to address this mindset, which has been kinda scattered throughout the thread.

Like I said a couple of pages ago, the Nazis were pretty bad dudes. We have substantial filmed and photographic evidence, heaps of testimony from affected peoples, and perhaps most ****ing of all, the excellent records kept by the SS. We know a lot of the things they did, and let's face it, the record's pretty bleak.

The morality and ethics of the Allied powers is a topic that has been argued for much longer than I've been alive, and by people with a greater understanding of the mindsets involved than I possess. I freely admit this, and it's part of why I'd encourage you to look into the short reading list I'll be providing below. Suffice to say, it is true that atrocities were committed by the Allies, most notably the USSR. Even that is a direct result of Nazi practices, though; the Soviet push towards Berlin was, in the end, a veritable blanket of ****, pillage and murder, all out of revenge. They had, in the minds of many Russians, earned that revenge. Some of them saw it as justified and right, and whether or not you agree with that premise, it's easy to see why they might think as such.

There is an argument to be made that Britain and France were responsible for much of German expansion prior to 1940. I won't even go into the mess of the Treaty of Versailles, but they repeatedly failed to follow through on their threats towards Germany. There was lots of saber rattling, and some degree of hawkishness, but in the end, when Austria, Czechoslovakia and Poland fell, nothing substantial was done. Even this, however, is an understandable series of events: the Great War had deeply scarred Europe, and there was great trepidation at the prospect of another one. Prior to the occupation of Norway, the Franco-Brits had planned on invading it themselves to keep Norwegian and Swedish resources out of German hands. After the war, in a pretty ballsy display of hypocrisy, they attempted(with undue success) to use the occupation as evidence of Germany's wrongdoing and war crimes. One wonders what they would've had to say had they been the first to invade.

So Britain and France? Not really evil. Now America seems to be the big boogeyman here, and I'm going to do something important. I'm going to give America the same benefit I have given to every European power thus far discussed: focusing squarely on their actions and policies during the war itself. This is not intended to be a discussion of the colonies, colonial policies, annexation, etc.

America's greatest sin in WWII was waiting. This is not to diminish the terribleness of the Japanese internment camps, the treatment of German or Germanic Americans throughout the war, or the dropping of Fat Man & Little Boy. It is simply to state that, had the USA chosen to intervene in events sooner, other atrocities may have been prevented. The Soviets' aforementioned swath of doom through the German countryside may have been less necessary, had the Allies opened a solid front in the West as Stalin repeatedly demanded.

Alright, this is getting to feel about as long as my first post, so I'm going to wrap things up. First of all, thank you, Alderon, for your kind words. I hope this can serve as an example for people and show that a reasoned discussion on equal terms can lead to a much more amicable and sensible conclusion. To be honest, I read the entire thread before posting, and when I started, I was not a big fan of your position. I had a negative gut reaction, which is just something we humans do. However, your steady demeanor in the face of insults and accusations essentially forced me to take your argument seriously. I did, addressed it as such, and look: we wound up in agreement.

Y'see people? That's how you do it. It's easy. Much easier than the alternative.

Also, almost forgot my reading list. These were the first four WWII books I had on my bookshelf, so I may post an expanded list on my profile later.
1. History of the Second World War by B. H. Liddell Hart. A good, thorough compendium of information from the perspective of a Brit who lived through both World Wars. There's an element of misfortune in that he partially blames himself for the advent of the blitzkrieg, but that aside, it's a solid read.
2. The Third Reich at War by Michael Veranov. Similar in purpose to Hart's book, but with a broader scope, and less inclined to one national perspective or another. It goes into greater detail about Germany's history and the motivations for the war in the first place. Good, good read.
3. How Hitler Could Have Won World War II by Bevin Alexander. Another book largely focused on the military aspects of the war, but an interesting analyses of the real reasons for Nazi failure.
4. The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer. This is the big one. If you don't read any of the other three, I don't care; read this one. It's one of the best, most respected works on Nazi Germany ever written. Shirer's perspective, as a journalist inside Berlin during Hitler's rise to power, is unbeatable. If you want a look into the German mindset at the time, look no further.

The Nazis were a political party that was predominately focused on economic reform in post-World War I Germany and helping the lower and middle classes. The racial issues initially were about as hostile as some Republicans are towards Mexicans.

You are conflating the Nazis with the SS. All members of the SS were Nazis. Not all Nazis were members of the SS.

However, even among the SS, less than a third of them actually knew about or were involved with the concentration camps. They also had a fair number of conscripts and auxiliary units. Despite being SS, they weren't involved with the concentration camps. Actually, they were mostly used as decoys. They had the auxiliaries going around in SS uniforms while the actual SS members fled Germany at the end of the war. So, when it comes down to it, the "evil" Nazis are mostly regulated to a few groups, like the SS-TV and Einsatzgruppen.

So the notion that "Nazi Germany was evil" shows a rather substantial lack of knowledge of what was actually going on. The people involved with the actual death camps, concentration camps, and murders were a small group of the SS working in secret, the SS was a minority of members of the Nazi party, and the Nazi party was made of a minority of Germans, most of whom joined the party due to a platform of economic reform.

If you are going to complain about this sort of thing, you really should understand what an actual "Nazi" was. All Einsatzgruppen were Nazis, yes, but only a small percentage of Nazis were Einsatzgruppen or had any idea what the Einsatzgruppen were doing.

whoever supports alderon is has no common sense. If you don't like the game don't play it, ignore it. Instead ***s like alderon have to ruin it for the rest of us. The games different anyway. The axis wants the relic. They didn't remove the game because of alderon they removed it to fix some bugs. Even I saw a couple bugs.

So when will the game be back on the website, and what types of changes will they be implementing? I hope they're not gonna try to censor out the very little nazi related stuff in the game. If they are, it's a waste of time and energy they could be using for the next campaign.

If they add allies campaighn it should be about them fighting the japeneese

So when will the game be back on the website, and what types of changes will they be implementing? I hope they're not gonna try to censor out the very little nazi related stuff in the game. If they are, it's a waste of time and energy they could be using for the next campaign.

whoever supports alderon is has no common sense. If you don't like the game don't play it, ignore it. Instead ***s like alderon have to ruin it for the rest of us.

...

They didn't remove the game because of alderon they removed it to fix some bugs. Even I saw a couple bugs.

......

Instead ***s like alderon have to ruin it for the rest of us.
They didn't remove the game because of alderon they removed it to fix some bugs.

Right.

Ladies and gentlemen, ah...Lawrence! Yeah!

Personally, I'm peeved at the Anti-Defamation League for wasting it's time on this game. The game makes no clear connections to Nazism or Hitler. In fact it clearly states in the games description that it takes place in an alternate 1940's. There is no indication that Nazism or Hitler even exists in this alternate timeline. Furthermore, for those of you out there that claim that games promote increased violence or hate in people there is no conclusive proof (i.e. no study that cannot be disputed by the results of another study). If that were true then I would be a mass murderer by now. Finally, it's a friggin' game for crying out loud. It's meant for entertainment.

I'm sorry, but I thought I might add my opinion. First of all, I would like to say all Nazis were not evil. Sure I think the actions performed by the Nazis in WWII were completely horrible, (let's just get this fact straight) but you have to recall the situations in Germany at the time. Before the war, the German people were still trapped in the worldwide economic depression, driving them to extremes to improve conditions around them. Also, many young German boys were brainwashed by the Nazi regime. After so long of telling them that what the Nazis were doing was correct, they slowly began to believe it. So there's that. Also, there were two divisions of the German Army. The Wehrmacht (early war) was a group of respectable fighters who understood war. This group was later slowly replaced by the SS (Nazis). These soldiers tended to be much more cruel, and they would use much dirtier tactics while fighting. Sure, I believe the references of the game were thinly veiled, but they also came with benefits. It provoked this healthy (well for the most part) display of beliefs among the various gamers, and hopefully gave a small chance for education. While I understand Alderon's point partially, as I have known a man who dispatched American troops to the battlefront, I did not find this game particularly offensive. I hope when you read my comment you don't find it as an assault on your beliefs, I'm just trying to get the facts correct and organized to some degree. Thank You. (Also, while I do not find the Nazis or the war "cool," I find them as interesting topics of study for the future and remembrance of what happened. Also, atrocities were committed on all sides. Few namesake operations: The Bombing of Dresden, Holocaust, Bataan Death March, Bombing of Nagasaki, The Great Purge. Also excuse me for rambling).

hail to the censorship!
seriously it makes me sad,censor a game because the nazis win a war (in fiction!!!) is one of the dumbest arguments i never seen,i'm myself a communist,and do i reject this game? NO,and please bring it back!

Arg.... To tell you the truth. I've never hate Jewish and Anti-Nazism people until I have seen their overeaction over the SMALLEST thing ever. I understand that they don't like Nazis because Nazis and Hitler kill millions of their people, but to be anti the people that think Nazi is cool ?

Those guys are brain dead .

We, the people who like German things from WWII, are not Neo-Nazis. We doesn't like the policy of Nazi German party. We are not racist. We doesn't like holocaust. We doesn't worship Hitler.
What we like is Nazi German's weaponry. What we like is the disclipine of WWII German army. What we like is their uniform and their dressing fasion. What we like is their Tank. What we like is their plane. What we like is their engineering.

If you think THESE things is evil and should be banned then you're braindead. Are you going to ban everything Hiler like too ? Are you going to ban everything hitler do too ?

Are you going to stop drinking water and stop raising the pet dog because hitler do it too ?

Are you going to hate sword, armour, spear, and any other weapony because your ancestor got killed by it or because that kind of weapon kill billions people too ?

Seriously, you guys are brain dead if you think that people who like Nazis thing are all Neo-Nazi, Hitler worshipper, Racist, Holocust lover.

Nazi German army's technology are far exceed the other nation at that time (StG44 invented by Nazi German is the ancestor of many ,or maybe every, assault rifle. Nazi German invented tactical-long ranged missles/ Jet plane and many other things) + Their sense of fasion is good and they have the same sanse of fasion that similar too people nowdays.(Compare the tank Tiger II to Sherman Tank.... Sherman look like a ****** kid while Tiger II look like a ****** modern tank) That's why we like them.

Nazi German army's technology are far exceed the other nation at that time (StG44 invented by Nazi German is the ancestor of many ,or maybe every, assault rifle. Nazi German invented tactical-long ranged missles/ Jet plane and many other things) + Their sense of fasion is good and they have the same sanse of fasion that similar too people nowdays.(Compare the tank Tiger II to Sherman Tank.... Sherman look like a ****** kid while Tiger II look like a ****** modern tank) That's why we like them.

Finally what I want to said is : It's wrong to hate the person, or objects, or weponry or ****s like that, because it's their act that is evil, you should hate their act, not themself.
Do not hate the playa, but hate the game.

Arg.... To tell you the truth. I've never hate Jewish and Anti-Nazism people until I have seen their overeaction over the SMALLEST thing ever. I understand that they don't like Nazis because Nazis and Hitler kill millions of their people, but to be anti the people that think Nazi is cool ?

We, the people who like German things from WWII, are not Neo-Nazis. We doesn't like the policy of Nazi German party. We are not racist. We doesn't like holocaust. We doesn't worship Hitler.
What we like is Nazi German's weaponry. What we like is the disclipine of WWII German army. What we like is their uniform and their dressing fasion. What we like is their Tank. What we like is their plane. What we like is their engineering.

If you think THESE things is evil and should be banned then you're braindead. Are you going to ban everything Hiler like too ? Are you going to ban everything hitler do too ?

Are you going to stop drinking water and stop raising the pet dog because hitler do it too ?

Are you going to hate sword, armour, spear, and any other weapony because your ancestor got killed by it or because that kind of weapon kill billions people too ?

Seriously, you guys are brain dead if you think that people who like Nazis thing are all Neo-Nazi, Hitler worshipper, Racist, Holocust lover.

Finally what I want to said is : It's wrong to hate the person, or objects, or weponry or ****s like that, because it's their act that is evil, you should hate their act, not themself.
Do not hate the playa, but hate the game.

since when are the jews responisible for the game coming down? get your facts before posting. <<< At that line, I didn't talk specifically about this situation. I've seen many games and media got banned or took down becaue the Nazi's stuff. There was one time when the sport day festival fancy-costume parade in my contry have the Nazi German costume theme. The highschool kids who dressed in faked-fancy Nazi costume ,alongside their highschool, got attacked by mass media and many Jewish organization world wide. This is pretty ridiculous and over reacting, in my opinion.

Not to be mean but you should work on your english. <<< Yeah, I was really emotional back then. Also, English is not my native language. But that's not much related to the point, isn't it ?

. and maybe you should speak to one of the people who dont like this game, listen to their opinion and understand it instead of randomly talk about them in a forum that wont change anything (idk when the game will/if comes back but you should contact higher people and not the a forum.)<<< I know, I'm sorry about that. Just wanted to express my anger/opinion somewhere.

you have no right to tell people what is right and what is wrong. if a person does something, has no regret over it and will do it again i see no reason why you cant hate that person. <<< I have the right to tell people what is right and what is wrong. It's freedom of speech, isn't it ? I ,however, have to right to forced people to do what I think is right.
I missed the point and pretty much talked rubbish back then. What I wanted to say at that time is the evil deeds that Nazi German Party and its leadder committed have nothing to do with their sense of fasion, their disclipine, and their engineering. These things (their sense of fasion, their disclipine, and their engineering) are what we like about Nazi. We do not like them because their evil deeds and their leader.

lastly... why triple post? <<< My mistake, my post was not appear lastnight, so I posted several times because of my anger. I will not do that again.