Forums → WEPR → not believing means send to hell?

All loving God eternally punishes billions of his followers who were made imperfectly.

Ayup. That's love for you.

You don't understand it as well...

Exactly. Eternal. Let's think for a second. You're going to be punished, forever, because you didn't think God was real? Because you made a few mistakes in life?

You're not taking into consideration that God is a just judge.

No one here is opposed to punishment. There is, however, such a thing as fitting the punishment to the crime. No finite set of crimes could EVER warrant eternal torture.

Take into consideration that the offense was done to the greater being.

There's a difference between being offended and flipping out like a psychotic person and torturing your ex-girlfriend to death because she cheated on you.

And there is also a difference between a metaphor and real life.

"Love me or I punish you forever."

Truth is, you aren't taking into mind that God has basically loved you since your conception.

No, he made two adult-babies and left their eternal ****ation inside of a fruit on a tree he specifically pointed out to them.

The sin of disobeying. Pretty awful.

What do you ****ing expect to happen if you leave two people ENTIRELY UNAWARE OF GOOD AND EVIL

...but aware of how to and how to not obey orders from a greater being.

alone and let something else tell them that it was okay to eat said fruit that had absolutely no reason to be there?

That someone else was the devil, you know.

Stop ninja'ing me Palpatine, hahaha.

I let it go. I'm not all-loving, but I wasn't going to make her suffer for it.

Excellent!

Excellent!

So it's excellent that I wasn't pissed and punishing, but it's totally fine for God to be eternally pissed and punishing?

You don't understand it as well...

What don't I understand, then? I'm not in agreement with EmperorPalpatine. All loving does not mean no punishment, per say. If you're raising a child and they steal something, you return what they stole, talk to them about why stealing is bad, and maybe put them in timeout if it's not the first time.

You don't torture them forever and claim you love them while doing so.

You're not taking into consideration that God is a just judge.

God is nothing but a tyrant if he condemns people to eternal punishment for something as simple as not believing in him. Nor is it a just punishment to infinitely overpunish someone.

Take into consideration that the offense was done to the greater being.

Yeah. I think this is the key thing.

God does not have the right to do whatever he wishes because he made us. If I make a child, can I cut open its stomach and eat it because I made it?

He made us as conscious, self thinking beings. Moreover, if he was truly all loving, he wouldn't consider us as lesser.

God is just a psychotic, narcissistic tyrant, if he's how the Bible tells it.

And please, don't try the, "You didn't make it, God did," line.

Truth is, you aren't taking into mind that God has basically loved you since your conception.

Please take a step back and look at this statement. Would someone who loves someone else condemn them to eternal torture for a finite crime?

The sin of disobeying. Pretty awful.

They had no knowledge of sin! You're basically calling an infant stupid for touching fire! After their parent lit one in front of them and left a sadistic older brother there to coax them into it!

...but aware of how to and how to not obey orders from a greater being.

Okay, I get it. We're all God's slaves. That's wonderful.

Seriously? Do you not see how absolutely disgusting that view is? God created a bunch of playthings that are so far beneath him he can do whatever he wants with them, for the sole purpose of having them worship him because they're 'lesser beings?' That's so morally abhorrent I feel sick to my stomach.

That someone else was the devil, you know.

Who God also created. Who God let into the garden.

Not to mention God created the tree in the first place.

I'm going to have to bow out for a while. I'm absolutely disgusted right now.

So it's excellent that I wasn't pissed and punishing, but it's totally fine for God to be eternally pissed and punishing?

God isn't pissed. No, not at all. If you can call it a feeling, it would be more like disappointment.

That would be a God that thinks 'I don't care about you, do as you may'.

Nooo, that would be a god that accepts his creations as they are, as they choose to be, and still reserves them heaven. A god that wouldn't care wouldn't send people to heaven. And wouldn't have created us in the first place.

I assume you are a guy? If you have a girlfriend and you give her your utmost love, and suddenly she 'cheats' on you, wouldn't you be offended?

Well... first, as Palpatine said, not if I was all-loving. No, it hasn't occured to me, but would it matter? I'm not all-loving, I can't say how I'd feel.

Exactly! Because he loves us!

But not those who are nasty. And he can't say who will be so, according to that free will thing, so he knows he will stop to love some people eventually. And yet according to you he is all like "omgosh you were nasty, I am so disappointed although I knew it would happen!" Er, what?

Thing is, he made humans to be perfect. As impossible as it may seem, it must be possible to be perfect back, right? And you reach that perfection in heaven, away from sin. While you are on Earth, you are given the choice. Of course, most choose the 'nice' path of going to hell.

Humans are imperfect because we sin... apparently... so take away sins, and you get perfect non-humans. Beings without free will, bound to eternity to being lobotomized nice little heaps of ectoplasm. All-loving indeed.

I'm not in agreement with EmperorPalpatine. All loving does not mean no punishment, per say.

Some punishment may be warranted, but it must be justified. To create something knowing exactly what it would do/think/say in its life, then claim that the created thing is doing wrong, the fault comes on the creator.

God is a just judge.

The issue comes in saying God is both omnibenevolent/merciful and fully just. Mercy is the impedence/suspension of justice.

it would be more like disappointment

That means it wasn't as good as He expected. If He was all knowing, He would've expected it. Thus, no disappointment.

What don't I understand, then? I'm not in agreement with EmperorPalpatine. All loving does not mean no punishment, per say. If you're raising a child and they steal something, you return what they stole, talk to them about why stealing is bad, and maybe put them in timeout if it's not the first time.

I never said you were, I just said that we're not in the same plane when it comes to love.

God is nothing but a tyrant if he condemns people to eternal punishment for something as simple as not believing in him. Nor is it a just punishment to infinitely overpunish someone.

You think he is a tyrant because you don't care about who he is or what he does, you only want the worse of him. And not believing in him doesn't necessarily send you to hell.

God does not have the right to do whatever he wishes because he made us. If I make a child, can I cut open its stomach and eat it because I made it?

The difference is that you didn't make the child, you are merely the instrument with which the child was made.

He made us as conscious, self thinking beings. Moreover, if he was truly all loving, he wouldn't consider us as lesser.

I consider him as greater, he considers us his children.

God is just a psychotic, narcissistic tyrant, if he's how the Bible tells it.

Maybe because you didn't give him the chance? And if you're reading the bible like I think you are, you must be wrong.

And please, don't try the, "You didn't make it, God did," line.

Too late!

Please take a step back and look at this statement. Would someone who loves someone else condemn them to eternal torture for a finite crime?

I must say that I do not comprehend completely, but I will answer however I can: the action in this world may be finite, but sin is not.

They had no knowledge of sin! You're basically calling an infant stupid for touching fire! After their parent lit one in front of them and left a sadistic older brother there to coax them into it!

You have it wrong. Let me correct.
1. The infant is actually a grown human, who was deliberately told NOT to touch the fire.
2. Pretend the older brother is actually some hobo, and he only wishes to see the guy lowered to the place where he is, so he wants to convince him to do so.

Okay, I get it. We're all God's slaves. That's wonderful.

Huh. Please read up on christianism and come back later.

Seriously? Do you not see how absolutely disgusting that view is? God created a bunch of playthings that are so far beneath him he can do whatever he wants with them, for the sole purpose of having them worship him because they're 'lesser beings?' That's so morally abhorrent I feel sick to my stomach.

Actually, he created us to share his love and not keep it to himself. The purpose has been stated. Feel as sick as you may, it's my faith.

Who God also created. Who God let into the garden.

Who was created as a beautiful angel. Who turned his back on God.

Not to mention God created the tree in the first place.

Like a test! Think of it as telling a person something, and him not obeying.

I'm going to have to bow out for a while. I'm absolutely disgusted right now.

You can also stop the sarcasm, it's disgusting as well.

Stop ninja'ing me!!

Some punishment may be warranted, but it must be justified. To create something knowing exactly what it would do/think/say in its life, then claim that the created thing is doing wrong, the fault comes on the creator.

-Read below-

The issue comes in saying God is both omnibenevolent/merciful and fully just. Mercy is the impedence/suspension of justice.

The thing is that God is perfect. Not in our way of understanding it, however.

That means it wasn't as good as He expected. If He was all knowing, He would've expected it. Thus, no disappointment.

Then if we had it your way, we wouldn't have been created?

God is perfect. Not in our way of understanding it

Then why use the label of perfect if it's not accurate?

No, I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask for evidence. That's the whole debate, wanting evidence. I just don't like how sometimes goes about. But there's a difference between asking or requiring evidence, versus demanding you whip your God out of your back pocket or proclaiming your own personal jihad like a few do.

You got me curious, what would you consider reasonable evidence to ask for?

No person is obliged to go to hell, you know?

So we can be horrible people, have no belief in God, disobey God all we like and still go to heaven when we die just by choosing to?

Being taken someplace by force.

Oh how horrible I'm being forced to spend eternity not being tortured, how dare this God force that on us when he could give us the choice to be BBQ'd.

That would be a God that thinks 'I don't care about you, do as you may'.

But that is exactly what God does, just adds in a later punishment improportionate to the crime.

Thing is, he made humans to be perfect. As impossible as it may seem, it must be possible to be perfect back, right?

If God made us perfect there is no way we could have messed up.

You can also stop the sarcasm, it's disgusting as well.

I'll respond to other things later once I've calmed down. I'm not being sarcastic either, I seriously want to throw up when I look at the world from your point of view. You honestly believe that it's just for some almighty ruler to create everything so he can do whatever he wants with it, and we're supposed to revel in that. You're glorifying our existence as God's slaves, which he treats as an abusive relationship to satisfy his narcissistic personality and sadistic tendencies.

Like a test!

And if you fail, you suffer forever. The problem is God would've known their choice before administering the 'test'.

So we can be horrible people, have no belief in God, disobey God all we like and still go to heaven when we die just by choosing to?

Not really. The choices you take must be carried out during life.

Oh how horrible I'm being forced to spend eternity not being tortured, how dare this God force that on us when he could give us the choice to be BBQ'd. But that is exactly what God does

See it as you may, it's true.

But that is exactly what God does, just adds in a later punishment improportionate to the crime.

Not really. You think he does nothing, in reality, he is allowing our decisions to go on. And there is no punishment large enough for sin.

If God made us perfect there is no way we could have messed up.

Yet somehow, we did. I don't get it either, but I have faith in it.

And if you fail, you suffer forever. The problem is God would've known their choice before administering the 'test'.

I repeat, it was a metaphor. I like to use them a lot, don't I?
Truth is, it should be easy for everyone to get the test right. It's just plain ethics. Do good, avoid evil.

I never said you were, I just said that we're not in the same plane when it comes to love.

What do you define love as? Let's start there.

You think he is a tyrant because you don't care about who he is or what he does, you only want the worse of him. And not believing in him doesn't necessarily send you to hell.

I claim he is a tyrant in regards to how he is presented in the Bible. If a god really exists, it may not be that god. Or the Bible could be wrongly portraying the real god. As for not believing in him resulting in hell, more people think that than the reverse.

The difference is that you didn't make the child, you are merely the instrument with which the child was made.

It's irrelevant. Why is God not held to the same morals as we are?

I consider him as greater, he considers us his children.

The Bible presents humanity as God's children, which he claims to love, yet views with contempt. He punishes us and sets us up to fail. He is an abusive parent.

Maybe because you didn't give him the chance? And if you're reading the bible like I think you are, you must be wrong.

I was raised as a Christian. My grandmother and aunt are both pastors. My entire family is Christian. I gave God a chance.

How am I reading the Bible wrongly? The words are there for anyone to see.

but sin is not.

An all loving figure could forgive us for our mistakes. He wouldn't torture us forever.

Huh. Please read up on christianism and come back later.

You have directly said multiple times on how God is superior to us and how we're lesser and he can do whatever he wants with us. Sounds like slavery to me.

Actually, he created us to share his love and not keep it to himself.

I'm not seeing the love anywhere.

Who turned his back on God.

And why did he do that?

The thing is that God is perfect. Not in our way of understanding it, however.

See, it's this claim of perfection that's getting to me. Why can God do horrible things like eternally punishing people and call it just, but our simple act of not believing he's actually there because we have no evidence warrants punishment?

And there is no punishment large enough for sin.

Why is that? God must have created it, since he created everything. Even if it was created as an absence of good. He made sin apart of the system. For what reason would he do that?

I don't get it either, but I have faith in it.

Okay, honestly, I don't even know how to say this without insulting you, so sorry in advance. It's stupid to believe something so wholeheartedly when you don't even understand what it's saying.

Truth is, it should be easy for everyone to get the test right. It's just plain ethics. Do good, avoid evil.

Except that what God appears to consider evil is arbitrary. Everything he does is good, check. Humanity is lesser and inherently sinners. Check. Where do we get the chance to avoid evil again?