Forums → WEPR → THE GREAT DEBATES! (Rd. 6 Results)

I just found this thread, I'm not sure if there will be a Round 4, but if so (and if it's ok) I'll sign up

If a car explodes in the middle of a parking lot with no one around, does it make a sound?

Yes. But power of sound will decrese by distance until it wanishes as that kind of Energy. So people won't hear it but some animales might.

@Moegreche I'ma sign up

@Moegreche I will sign up if it's already starting, though reading the past posts, I see sign ups haven't started. How many people are allowed to sign up?

I would totally include myself in this but like JACKinbigletters the topics are too boring to care.

Here we go guys - Round 4 is starting! And I'm shaking things up a little, so make sure you read this entire post.

First off, there won't be a sign up. If you want to participate, just post your argument on this thread. And remember to check the rules in the OP of this thread before posting!

So here's the twist. In this round of the Great Debates, there are going to be actual debates. But, in the spirit of keeping things friendly and fun (which is why I don't let you guys debate one another) you'll be debating.... me!!!! The main thing to focus on is to make your argument clear and to anticipate (and respond to) possible objections to your argument. And, if you like, you can hit me up on my profile if you'd like advice or tips (just keep in mind that my Disqus is sometimes delayed).

Oh, and the second twist and that you'll all be addressing the same question. So here it is for anyone who is interested to answer. Make sure to give a thorough and compelling response:

Take some proposition (statement) P. Now, P is true - but here's the kicker. If you believe that P is true, you're going to be correct, but miserable. If you believe that P is false, you're going be incorrect but happy.
So the question is, which state of affairs is better? And does it matter what P is?

Here's an example of what P might be: Your spouse (or significant other) is cheating on you. Knowing this would make you miserable, and not knowing it would make you happy. Of course, this doesn't quite match up, but hopefully you get the idea.

I'm going to have to say that you know about P, no matter what P is if you know about it you can do something about it and return yourself to a state of happiness, or at least a state of acceptance.

Taking the example from above you can then leave your significant other and find a new person to be happy with. Yes, you may be unhappy for a little while but in the long run it's the best option, if, big if, you believe in the polygamous relationships that is considered the norm for Western culture, we must assume this as in the example the word cheating is used, implying that the relationship is polygamous. If you do then my point stands that you can leave the relationship that breaks an important social point for you and move onto something that will bring you happiness. If you don't then there is nothing to be miserable about because there is no cheating going on.

Now that was just taking from the example but you could use it for many examples, however every situation is different and would need to be picked apart before a stance was taken.

I can here you shouting, "But Ignorance is bliss!" that is true, in some cases but not in all cases, it also comes down to the persons involved and their preferences. For me I would want to know, others may not want to know.

I'm going to have to say that you know about P, no matter what P is if you know about it you can do something about it and return yourself to a state of happiness, or at least a state of acceptance.

Great point - and kudos for being our brave first post!

I think you're right - in a case like the one I set up, someone who knew that P could do someone about to increase their welfare (i.e. become less miserable).

There are a lot of complicated things going on here, and one of the most complicated is there are a number of different kinds of value of play. Without giving too much away, what I have in mind is the disvalue of believing something false compared to the value of a life that goes well (or the converse of this). So it's at this point that I get to make the (admittedly lame) charge that you've changed the nature of the case.

But with the nature of the case clear, maybe I can give a better example. Suppose you are in a room that has everything you need: delicious food, plenty of different drinks, video games, lots of books, etc. Now, in this room, you're quite happy - no doubt about it!. In fact, you believe that there's no better room on Earth. Call this belief P.

As it turns out, you're in a sensory deprivation tank. Your brain is being stimulated by electrodes to give you the experience of this amazing room. In short, you have the option to leave this simulation. But unlike the cheating scenario, you will never reach the state of happiness you had in the simulated room.

Note that ignorance here isn't bliss. I'm arguing that the better state of affairs - whether or not the agent knows what's going on - is the one in the simulated room.

As you had just stated, ignorance is not bliss. Deciding to ignore P to be happy, will only keep you happy if you don't think about P. The fact is, you know that P exists, and by ignoring P, you ignore what would make you upset. And what would make you upset, exists.

The fact is, P could be so many things, P could be a sickness. If you choose to ignore it, you will be happy doing your regular routine for awhile, but by ignoring it, you let the sickness get out of hand, forcing you out of your regular daily routine longer than if you had just accepted the fact that you had been sick.
P could be your spouse cheating on you. By ignoring this, you can act like everything is alright in the relationship, but you would be doing the same thing that made your spouse cheat in the first place. If you keep letting it happen, you will be left for someone new, or it will come to a point where the whole relationship/marriage can never be fixed.
P could be you getting fired in a few days. You can ignore it, by keeping on doing your daily workload. Thought that is probably the reason your company is letting you go. By accepting the truth, and working really hard, you may just keep the job, of course you will be miserable working incredibly hard, but you will be happy knowing you avoided losing a job, and what could have been financial problems.
You could be the doctor, P being the sickness of your patient. Would you choose to ignore it? You would be miserable telling your patient can die, but you will have given the chance to someone to try and save their own lives.
P could be so many things you wish weren't true and decide to ignore it.

By ignoring these things, you can act normally while these things manifest into something much bigger. That happiness you get from ignoring it, will be short lived.

Though in some cases, you could have already done something wrong, and by ignoring P, you could only be happy for awhile.

You could be the one cheating on your spouse, and P could be that she will be leaving you. You could be happy, temporarily, to be sleeping with someone else, but if you choose to accept that your spouse is leaving you, you will be miserable, but you will eventually fix the marriage.

You could be doing drugs, heard about a drug test coming up, would you ignore P, which would be that drug test? You could be miserable by staying away from drugs, but you will have avoided a huge problem by being clean in the drug test results.

To conclude, you can ignore problems, until they manifest into bigger things, and affect bigger areas of your life. And by realizing that P is true, you can avoid bigger problems in the road ahead. Though you will be happy ignoring it, you won't be happy for very long because emotions always change to the current situation, and the the situation always changes. Just like how you would be miserable knowing that P is true, you being miserable is just for awhile. So being in the state of acceptance that P is correct and being miserable, is better.

So with that being said, does it really matter what P is? No, P doesn't matter as long as believing in P will make you miserable, and ignoring it will make you happy. If P is significant enough to change your emotions, then what P is really doesn't matter since no matter what P is, it changes your current state of emotion.

I am going to be the brave one! I support the other side of the argument.

@SirLegendary and @JACKinbigletters Ignoring P is sometimes the best solution. The major point you are not considering is that there could be nothing you can do about P. So it may not be just a cheating girlfriend that you can break up with and try to find another soulmate. P could be a bit like cancer (sickness that no matter if ignored or not, it still keeps attacking your organism). As such, while your arguments are close, they miss the point just by an inch.

Also depends on what kind of people are we talking about. If ignoring P is enough to make a clinically depressed man happy for example, then obviously ignoring P is better as it keeps potentially suicidal thoughts outside their heads!

As such, without anything to do about P, you'd better wander in happiness as the mere thought of something like P makes you unhappy. The fact that you cannot do anything about it would crush you in such case!

In conclusion, P could be described as knowing your date of death in advance. Would you like to know such thing?

@SirLegendary

Deciding to ignore P to be happy, will only keep you happy if you don't think about P. The fact is, you know that P exists, and by ignoring P, you ignore what would make you upset. And what would make you upset, exists.

This all seems right. But notice, that this isn't quite what the question is asking. In fact, knowledge doesn't even enter into the equation (I did this on purpose, but for technical reasons). So you either believe that P or you believe that not-P. So believing (or knowing) P and just ignoring it isn't really an option here.

Despite this, your conclusion:

So being in the state of acceptance that P is correct and being miserable, is better.

@Doombreed - remember you're arguing against me, not our other debaters

The major point you are not considering is that there could be nothing you can do about P.

In conclusion, P could be described as knowing your date of death in advance. Would you like to know such thing?

I very much like this as a more straightforward example of a truth that you might be better off not knowing.

On the whole, though, I'm not seeing much of an argument for your position here - at least, not yet. There are a couple of ways of running this kind of argument, but going case-by-case probably isn't going to work.

*****
For anyone wanting to get technical with things, I have two kinds of value in mind. Epistemic value and ethical value. Believing true things has epistemic value (this claim can, of course, be challenged). Having a life that's full of welfare has ethical value (this claim is far less contentious). But there are a lot of people who think that believing true things (or knowing them) is part of what it is to have a life that's full of welfare. The interplay between these two kinds of value is both delicate and fascinating. It's also incredibly difficult to engage with, so it's certainly not necessary to do so in order to earn a quest/merit!

Great point - and kudos for being our brave first post!

Yes for sure. And this is especially encouraged in this round as you're debating with me directly!

Hey, sorry bothering you, but i'd like to join the great debates, but i haven't understood what we are talking about, what's the question of the debate?

Yes for sure. And this is especially encouraged in this round as you're debating with me directly!

This sounds arrogant Just kidding, anyway.

You see, my thesis is this:

It definitely matters what P is because it matters whether you can do something about it or not, as supported with examples in the previous post.
If P is something that can be resolved (even if it takes effort and sadness) then knowing it is the best option. But if it can't then the best option is to ignore it exactly because you cannot do anything about it. What also matters is the kind of person you are (like stated through the example with the clinically depressed man) and how you react to such situations. It may be too heavy for you to bear anyway, regardless of whether it can be fixed or not.