I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I would like to see what you guys think. Is America a Christian Nation founded on Christian Ideals, or is this a secular Republic that happens to have Christians in it? Try to provide evidence for your thoughts whenever possible. I also have a decent amount of evidence for both sides at my disposal to help the discussion along if that's necessary.
Okay, I'll start with this. Right this second I feel that America is a Christian Nation founded on Christian ideals. A lot of our laws and statutes are derived from Christian morals. Most of our political leaders are Christian. America's first Euro-Americans were Christian. I'm of Jewish decent, but I celebrate Christmas - why? Because I'm in a Christian Nation.
Please, the christian church had a rough past, but christianity is not bad now. At least we are not selling deeds to heaven, although the calender is based on christianity, even if they changed bc to bce, and ad to ce. At least the conntry isn't based on ancint hebrew laws. Are you wearing a cotton-wool blend? If so, it is my duty to publicly execute you. So, when are you going to sell your daughter into slavery? I need a butler... Ah, dang. Only the head of the family can do that. (father) See. It could have been a lot worse.
Whoa, whoa back up. I may be of Jewish decent, but I do not practice the faith. I'm a spiritual girl who likes to study religious ideals.
But if you are going to say that about ancient Hebrew Laws, the same can be said about some of the crazy laws of the Bible. Just as Judaism has evolved so did Christianity.
My point was that I'm not religious, yet we still do the Christmas thing.
But we really are a Christian nation founded on Christian ideals. You see it everywhere. I mean, for gods sake, we have god in our pledge and on out bloody money.
It is so very unavoidable. National holidays. Songs for our country. Moneys. Christians. Oh wait, scratch that last one...kind of a given.
Actually those laws were christian as well. I am just pionting out that we didn't take all the very early christian laws. I never said anything about Jews, just ancient hebrew laws found in the bible. (613 commandments) Did you know it is illegal to beat your slve to death, but if they die the next day, you are fine? An excelent piont. Jesus was not born christmas day, but rather some other time. The exact day is unknown, so it could be the 25th. The meaning of christmas has been lost, and now it is all debters day...
You know, there was a period of time where christians were forced to bank, due to lack of other jobs, and people gave them hate for being greedy. Yah. It also happened to jews.
Hmm...I'm really not sure. I believe we are a secular republic that is so infused with Christian people and customs that we have practically become a Christian nation.
As far as our laws being founded on the Bible....meh, I'm not so sure. Two of the 10 commandments are actual laws, that's it. Our laws are based on what keeps a country running the best - something that came not only from the Bible, but also from things like the Code of Hammurabi and other influential texts.
If we were a true Christian nation, good luck figuring out why we have freedom of religion. Not exactly Biblically supported.
Yes, our money and our pledge do have god in them - something I vehemently disapprove of, but oh well.
As I said...I believe our founding fathers intended for us to be a secular republic, but we have become so Christian-dominated that we've strayed from that a bit.
Oh yeah, I have been critical of the bible, but there are also plenty of good values to take from it too. Don't get me wrong, I love the bible, just not everything in it.
Good points, as far as god being mentioned in the pledge and on printed money:
"In God We Trust" was put on printed money during Lincoln's Presidency
And the phrase "Under God" was inserted into the pledge in... 1954 I think.
I like where this is going, though. But this evidence I just mentioned can't exactly be used to determine what the founding principles of the nation were. But again, there is good evidence you guys have already mentioned for both sides of this.
Here is a proclamation by George Washington setting aside the last Thursday in November as Thanksgiving Day. This has some pretty heavy Christian tones, does this add credence to the Christian Nation argument?
This was printed in the Massachusetts Centinel On 14 October, 1789.
WHEREAS it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a DAY OF PUBLICK THANSGIVING and PRAYER, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:"
NOW THEREFORE, I do recommend and assign THURSDAY, the TWENTY-SIXTH DAY of NOVEMBER next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed;-- for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish Constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted;-- for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge;-- and, in general, for all the great and various favours which He has been pleased to confer upon us.
And also, that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions;-- to enable us all, whether in publick or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us); and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.
GIVEN under my hand, at the city of New-York, the third day of October, in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine.
I think we were founded on christian principles (however skewed they were) but have since come extremely near to being an atheist/all roads lead to the same place (which i see as the same) country.
I don't think we're that close to being atheist (I wish). The most predominant religion in America is still Christianity, although the most prominent denomination is now Evangelicalism.
Yeah, we're not even close to being atheistic. From what I recall, there are only something like 4% of the population that calls themselves atheists.
As far as the "official" definition of whether or not we are a Christian nation, the Treaty of Tripoli, signed in 1796 during Washington's last term, states it pretty clearly:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
The first clause is the important one, for our purposes.
Practically speaking, though, I still say we are not quite a Christian nation, although we are very close. I think that making the distinction between being founded with the pledge and money including god and the fact that they were added much later is an important one. Obviously the founders did not consider it necessary, and I still to this day do not understand how it does not violate the first amendment. Oh well...I'm not a judge, I suppose.
Fantastic evidence there, Raz. Is it possible, though, that we were just saying that in order to affect the signing of the treaty? The treaty was signed as a mutual accord to obtain British protection against piracy.
I think we are a Christian country based on Christian ideals. However, that does not mean that everyone that lives in America is Christian. In fact, it would be un-American to have all Christians. We are supposed to be the melting pot! But when you think about it, Christianity is definitely the default religion in America. Even if someone isn't really religious at all, and doesn't have a relationship with God, if you ask them they will say they are Christian just because that is what they are used to.
