ForumsWEPRMust you be Aethiest to enjoy debate on Armorgames?

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steevo15
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steevo15
1,562 posts
Peasant

I'm just going to throw this out there... Call me crazy, or correct me, but...

It just seems like when it comes to controversial issues that could possibly conflict with certain religious views, all religious arguments are immediately classified as false, untrue, mumbo-jumbo.

Is it not okay to express your own personal beliefs about a certain issue based on what your religion says without being shunned and regarded as a closed minded fool?

Is it not okay to use the bible, the torah, the Koran, or any other religious book as your argument?

Most people as it seems on these forums would argue that you are not allowed to argue with those things because not all people believe in the same religion.

But couldn't I just as easily debunk all of your arguments because I don't believe in the same things you do?

I suppose the point I really want to get down to is why religion seems to be so widely unaccepted on these forums?

  • 134 Replies
Craze77
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Craze77
813 posts
Peasant

No, you dont have to be an aethiest. Im a Christian and I love debating about my religion and other topics.

DDX
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DDX
3,562 posts
Nomad

Like the Mayan Calendar


the mayans seemingly couldn't count past 2012, its like they ran out of fingers or heads or something.
Estel
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Estel
1,973 posts
Peasant

I'm not sure if this has been said, but religion is based on faith. Faith is NOT based on fact, but just on your belief in something. Belief is something that you can't strongly debate about which is why you see failed attempts at Christians defending their faith. This is not meant to be a stereotype or total evaluated statement, but Athiests attempt to prove Christianity wrong. It is quite easy to prove faith wrong when you present facts. All in all, this is why not just why Athiests enjoy debating religion, but there is an appearance that they are good at debating just because they can present scientific facts.

I'm not saying there aren't great Athiest debaters, but this is my theory on why Athiest hop onto religious debates.

thoadthetoad
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thoadthetoad
5,642 posts
Peasant

the mayans seemingly couldn't count past 2012, its like they ran out of fingers or heads or something.


Actually, it's based on rebirth. You need to educate yourself!
DDX
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DDX
3,562 posts
Nomad

Actually, it's based on rebirth. You need to educate yourself!


Yes I know, They talked about that in a recent issue of TIME (the one with the new supreme court justice). I was merely attempting to make a joke to lighten the mood. If it offended anyone in particular or showed ignorance, then I'm sorry.
Highfire
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Highfire
3,025 posts
Nomad

I'm not sure if this has been said, but religion is based on faith. Faith is NOT based on fact, but just on your belief in something. Belief is something that you can't strongly debate about which is why you see failed attempts at Christians defending their faith. This is not meant to be a stereotype or total evaluated statement, but Athiests attempt to prove Christianity wrong. It is quite easy to prove faith wrong when you present facts. All in all, this is why not just why Athiests enjoy debating religion, but there is an appearance that they are good at debating just because they can present scientific facts.
I'm not saying there aren't great Athiest debaters, but this is my theory on why Athiest hop onto religious debates.


okie, I didn't read fully what you said, they do rely entirely on belief, and yes - I am an Atheist, I love to debate, it's so funny watching people mess up what they would say, I don't like heated conversations though. Really I just like to give them the reason(s) why they shouldn't do something but in this case as religion, I don't try as no person I know have switched religion whom's a strong believer, 1 of my friends is definately Atheist, my brother might be, and my father could be, he said he's the type who doesn't believe in an Entity but he does, double-sided really.... Now Svoovy, a name like that at the front page, I don't blame you, but I do think this would offend some people - I personally don't mind, but things like this is quite embarrassing for some Atheists, let's move onto something else please :P

- H
FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

But a lot of laws in our system are based of the beliefs of the people in power and the people voting for the laws. For example, The Government obviously believes that marijuana is a dangerous drug. Because of this, they made it illegal. Everything is based on beliefs, granted they might not be religious, they are still beliefs nonetheless.


Delayed response, but Hidden pretty much covered that with his post. Laws aren't created based on subjective opinions. They are created due to empirical studies and evidence.

It almost seems as if you are putting Atheists on a higher level than those who are not. Since when is this true? Atheists are just as equal as you are me.


Atheists are not on a higher level than theists. Anyone who can present a rational argument will be duly respected. Stating 'we should make a law about X, because we believe in X' is not rational, as it doesn't take into account those who don't believe in 'X', or indeed any evidence, which is the crux of the argument.
VoltCruelerz
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VoltCruelerz
501 posts
Nomad

Oi.. Wall of Text Incoming...

I spent a couple years of my life essentially sitting around and doing nothing more than thinking about the subject of God vs. Science. Eventually I got to the point where I asked, "Is it too much to ask for both?" Believe it or not, there is evidence out there to support the Young Earth Theory, but there is also evidence for evolution and the Big Bang Theory. I try to be just and as such tend to not be partial, but I will admit when there is evidence going the other way. I hate being wrong, but there is so much on the subject, it is almost impossible to learn everything from both sides. I watch the Discovery, National Geographic, and History Channels almost constantly, trying to gain more knowledge of either. Because they tend to be biased towards the BBT, I also subscribe to the magazine Answers which is the other side of the coin. I don't denounce science, in fact I know that there is scientific evidence that points either way (what annoys me is when people say they have proof... They don't have proof, they have evidence...)

For the sake of neutrality, I will use both sides of an argument...

Young Earth: In recent studies, it was discovered that there is a large tectonic plate floating on the outer core of the Earth. If it had been down there for millions of years, it would have melted by now. It also matches up with the current model of the way in which the flood occured. (Severe tectonic shift caused the crust to move in extremely dramatic ways which would do unkind things to water like make it go "up" mountains).

BB: While it does seem to suggest that the earth did have a major tectonic and possibly even a flood, it does not directly support the concept of a YE...

Next, we'll talk about everyone's favorite, evolution...

BB: We are finding large amounts of fossils which seem to progress in a general manner towards the complex nature we find today. (I won't go into detail because everyone knows this already...)

YE: While that does suggest that macro evolution has occurred, it proves nothing. The animals that stepped off Noah's ark were defined in the Bible as "kinds." While it has traditionally been interpreted as species, it looks more like they were exactly what was said. Quite possibly, these animals could have been genetically redundant and as such carried the DNA for other species within its cells which when exposed to a certain number of outside factors, chemicals would be released that would make that the dominant DNA and would eject the remaining DNA, thus "creating" a new species. (I wish I could put more, but I am relatively unfamiliar with this theory...)

Lets try background radiation...

BB: There is background radiation that is flying through the universe from every possible direction which is exactly what we would expect if the BB had occurred. As the massive amounts of energy from the BB detonated and the universe exploded into being, much energy was released. After the formation of X,Y, and Z Bosons, Axioms, and other primordial particles, there was still much electromagnetic radiation left over that over time, cooled and created the radio waves we see today.

YE: Umm... God made it like that? There is no response that comes from the religious sect that directly deals with this. Perhaps it is given off by "Dark Energy." Flip that around and the concept becomes the fact that energy gives off Anti-Gravity. This would help to explain why you can't go faster than light. (The light won't let you and will bend space until it is faster...) The thing is, that idea does not directly deal with what was asked, but is somewhat related (as is the next response...)

Now for the bane of Darwinism, Irreducible Complexity

YE: "If something was ever found which could not have been developed over a period of small, incremental steps, my theory would positively break down." ~Darwin~ On the Origin of Species Recently, there have been many discoveries on the cellular level that suggest that the development of those by evolution would be impossible. Of course there is the cell and how the DNA is operated which is itself IC, but I want to talk about another thing for now, the flagellar motor. This is what is on the capsule of many different types of bacteria. By spinning at a few tens of thousands of RPM's it is one of the fastest motors in existence. It requires sixteen different proteins to be built (including the one is to mount it to the cell wall and one that makes up the tail itself). Six of these proteins are used elsewhere in the cell, but the rest are not. Their sole purpose is to make the motor work. Remove any one piece and it won't work, in fact, unless you assemble each piece in an exact order, you get stuck and it won't work. That would mean that you would either have to get everything at once (won't ever happen. I don't care if you give it billions of years. Its not going to happen. EVER!!!!) or it would come pre-assembled by something along the lines of an omniscient creator... It can't be explained with evolution, but God's existence would explain it.

BB: Umm... Hrm... OH!! You said nothing about DNA in there. By having DNA write the code, it explains it. <insert note here: Except for the fact that the method used to read and write DNA, plus the molecule itself are also IC, but hey. If someone asks, I'll respond to this, but I think this is going to be my longest post ever so I'll wrap things up...>

In short, people need to look at both sides. Don't be ignorant and arrogant. The religious world has a tendency to be so because they feel the Bible is the only argument necessary (which it ought to be, given that it is a collection of individual writings, or "books&quot. On any other argument, it would be. So many eye witness accounts and letters would easily be enough but what ever. BB people want scientific data, so go find it! I have plenty more where all that came from, but I don't feel like making a page take five minutes to load due to text... This lack of factual knowledge worsens your side of the argument. Without facts in a world that lives off them, you won't go long before being called an idiot.
As for BB people, you do realize that the Bible is a collection of dozens of different writings, correct? Yes it's old, but that changes nothing. It is still thousands of eye witness accounts of such. Oh and as you surely noticed from my post, there is evidence for this too.

I speak not because I feel like ministering to the world of AG, but because my three pet peaves are the following: foul language, ignorance, and arrogance. Throw any too together and I become infuriated. Throw in the third, and I will create a wall of text with the sole purpose of shutting people up...

There is no proof (unless you count the Bible which is only halfway to being proof), but there is evidence. That evidence can point either way. Now everyone get off your stupid high-horse and grow a brain. I am sick and tired of both sides arguing immaturely about this topic. I am religious yes, but I understand the theories of the Big Bang and understand the concept of evolution among many other things. I ask that others do nothing more than that, but if everyone carried knowledge of the evidence of both, there would not be idiots arguing over stupid things, but rather intellectuals discussing a controversial topic.

I hate stupidity and this thread shows a whole lot of it. People think that they have proof when they have little more than evidence. Unfortunately, people present things as facts and won't concede the things they don't I gave examples of evidence that could send something either way and one example of each that the other cannot explain. Simply put, shut up and gain a little wisdom before arguing needlessly.

That is all.

VoltCruelerz
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VoltCruelerz
501 posts
Nomad

Due to the fact that that took me a long time to write, I forgot something. As was said above, religion is based on faith yes. But when there is evidence both ways, it is a matter of personal preference.

Even if we are wrong, you had best understand that if not a deity, Jesus would have been the wisest man in the history of the world. If one were to obey His commands, you would end up with the most advanced and peaceful society in the history of mankind. Just remember that...

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

If it had been down there for millions of years, it would have melted by now.


We don't know how long it's been there, or how it got there.

We don't know what it is made of.

Therefore, we shouldn't be drawing conclusions.
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Umm... God made it like that?


You're bringing religion into a scientific argument. . . .
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(won't ever happen. I don't care if you give it billions of years. Its not going to happen. EVER!!!!)


Unsupported statement. Also, your entire argument relies completely on the validity of this statement- and if you don't support that statement, your argument completely falls apart.
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God's existence would explain it.


So if we haven't proven anything or figured out how it works, AT ALL, it *has* to be God? No. You're drawing conclusions from something that hasn't been figured out, again.
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(which it ought to be, given that it is a collection of individual writings, or "books&quot.


No. . .just. . .no. That statement is so wrong I don't know where to start.
1st) You think the length of a book makes it more valid? Wtf? Atlas Shrugged was a long book, but that doesn't mean Rearden Metal exists, or that Taggart Transcontinental is a real company, or that Ayn Rand's philosophy is correct. And because it is a collection of books doesn't man it is any more valid either. The Chronicles of Narnia is a collection of books too. Does that mean it's a valid argument in a field of science, or at least should be? No. Same thing applies to the Bible.
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it's old, but that changes nothing. It is still thousands of eye witness accounts of such.


It changes a lot of things. People, including the writers of the Bible, didn't know jack at the time. Anyone could've seen a forest fire or a wetland and thought God was sending the Apocalypse to them. Also, eyewitness accounts have recently been found to be -EXTREMELY- unreliable. and the Bible is 'supported' by unsupported, blown-out-of-proportion, quite frankly crazy eyewitness accounts. and often it was just one person witnessing it.
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Jesus would have been the wisest man in the history of the world


You don't have proof OR evidence for this.
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If one were to obey His commands, you would end up with the most advanced and peaceful society in the history of mankind.


You don't have proof OR evidence for this.

WoT used WoT! It's not very effective. . . .

WoT counters with mini-WoT!
Maverick4
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Maverick4
6,800 posts
Peasant

then expalin the boy with the 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish? several thousand saw that. and Jesus's first miracle, at the wedding where he turned water into the best one any of those ppl had ever tasted.

People, including the writers of the Bible, didn't know jack at the time. Anyone could've seen a forest fire or a wetland and thought God was sending the Apocalypse to them. Also, eyewitness accounts have recently been found to be -EXTREMELY- unreliable. and the Bible is 'supported' by unsupported, blown-out-of-proportion, quite frankly crazy eyewitness accounts.sted.


so unless 5500 thousand people where crazy, it seems you kno jack about the bible.
Maverick4
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Maverick4
6,800 posts
Peasant

and to answer the question at the beggining of this thread, yes, i do think you need to be an athiest to enjoy dbate because if your religios, christian, jew, mustlim or other, then you (if athiest) wont have athiest down on you bashing everything you say saying it "unethical", "highly improbable" etc, etc

thisisnotanalt
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thisisnotanalt
9,821 posts
Farmer

then expalin the boy with the 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish? several thousand saw that. and Jesus's first miracle, at the wedding where he turned water into the best one any of those ppl had ever tasted.


As Estel said, faith isn't based in fact, it's based on faith. . . .
Neither of those occurrences have any evidence. There is so much room for the writers of the Bible to throw in anecdotes and metaphors in that it's not even funny. In fact, it's not good idea in my opinion to literally interpret -any- of Jesus' miracles. And I know quite a bit about the Bible- I just am not Christian and interpret it differently than you, apparently. I haven't read the whole thing, or even most of it, but I'm familiar with many of the basic stories and ideals in it. Just because I don't interpret the Bible literally doesn't mean I don't know anything about it.
FireflyIV
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FireflyIV
3,224 posts
Nomad

I'd just like to point out that the origins of the universe and the origins of human kind have nothing at all to do with atheism or theism. It just so happens that these theories conflict with religious texts which is why they are such a hot issue.

Just because the Big Bang Theory has not yet been proven does nopt mean that the Youn Earth Theory is it's next best competitor. It is way down the list of likelihoods. This goes for evolution and intelligent design too.

As for your quote from the origin of the Species, that was the starting point of thge theory of evolution, from our modern perspective, it is almost entirely incorrect.

(unless you count the Bible which is only halfway to being proof),


No I don't count the Bible. It is no way near being halfway proof.

As for proof of evolution I'd like to throw a few (well, a lot) of links at you. Get ready!

29+ Cases for Macroevolution
An Account of a Debate with a Creationist
An Account of the 1993 Creation Conference
All About Archaeopteryx
Ancient Molecules and Modern Myths
Arachaeopteryx: Answering the Challenge of the Fossil Record
Are Mutations Harmful?
Attributing False Attributes to Thermodynamics
Bombadier Beetles and the Argument of Design
The 'Burdick Print'
Creationsim and the Platypus
Creationist Arguments: Java Man
Creationist Arguments: The Monkey Quote
Creationist Arguments: Neandertals
Creationist Arguments: Peking Man
A Creationist Exposed: Gish
Creationist Whppoers
Creationists and Pithecanthropines
The Creation Research Society's Creed
Darwin's Black Box: Irredicule Complexity or Irrepoducible Irreducibility?
Digit Numbering and Limb Development
Dino Blood Redux
Dinosaur Footprints in Coal
Dinosaur Valley State Park
Do Human Tracks Occur in the Kayenta of Arizona?
Debate: Edwards vs. Aguillard
Entropy, Disorder and Life
Evidence for Evolution
The Evolution of Improved Fitness
The Evolution of the Woodpecker's Tongue
Five Major Misconceptions About Evolution
Fossil Hominids: The Evidence for Evolution
Fossil Hominids: Lucy
Genetic Algorithims and Evolutionary Computation
Geologic References in the Paluxy Controversy
How Good are those Young Earth Arguments: A Close Look at Dr. Hovind's List of Young-Earth Arguments and Other Claims
Horse Evolution: Hyrocatherium and Hyrax
IRC Graduate School Catalogue and List of Publications
Images of Neandertals
Information Theory and Creationism: Spetner and Biological Information
Jury-Rigged Design
Kansas Evolution Hearings
Lucy's Knee Joint
A Matter of Degree: Carl Baugh's Alleged Credentials
Observed Instances of Speciation
On Archaeopteryx, Astronomers and Forgery
On the Heels of Dinosaurs
The Origin of Whales and the Power of Independent Evidence
An Overview of Dinosuar Tracking
Peking Man and Homo erectus
Plaigiarised Errors and Molecular Genetics
Publish or Perish: Some Published Works on Biochemical Evolution
A Response to Ashby Camps 'Critique'
Response to Casey Luskin
A Response to Wayne Jackson
Review: Bones of Contention
A Review of IRC's Impact Article 151
A Review of NBC's 'The Mysterious Origins of Man'
Review: Science of Today and the Problems of Genesis
Review: The Image of God
Sauropods, Elephants,Weightlifters
Sea-Monster or Shark?
Scientific Creationism and Error
Scientists Challenge Claim for 60,000 year old Mungo DNA
The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Evolution and Probability
Suspicious Creationist Credentials
A Tale of Two Teeth
The Taylor Site 'Man Tracks'
Ted Holden's Frequent Questions Answered
Ted Holden's World
The Texas Dinosaur/'Man Track' Controversy
Transitional Vertevrate Fossils FAQ
A Visit to the IRC Museum

Or we could all just save ourselves some time and take the

Evolutionary Knowledge test:

http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/cre-test.htm

(P.S. I hope all these links work)
samdawghomie
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samdawghomie
3,550 posts
Peasant

Neither of those occurrences have any evidence. There is so much room for the writers of the Bible to throw in anecdotes and metaphors in that it's not even funny. In fact, it's not good idea in my opinion to literally interpret -any- of Jesus' miracles.


I can't agree more Alt. I've been in a Christian family my whole life and have always belived in what it has taught us. And I still do, but I been thinking and studying a lot lately about Charles Darwin's evolution theory and it has hit me that most of his theories are very quite true. I do believe in micro evolution like a giraffe growing a longer neck, but I have not yet sided with macro evolution saying that humans and apes came from one common ancester. As I think about it more with the fact of the big bang that I do now believe in the old Earth theory. That states that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, and the big bang really did happen but it was all God's planning to happen.
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