Yes, I'm submitting this because I don't see any currently active threads on the issue :P
I'll just leave two statements that probe a little deeper than face value:
a) Exactly what motivates the military's policy here? One must admit that "don't ask, don't tell" is definitely less discriminatory than "search and destroy", but are there any grounds for the military to somehow be run with standards separate from the rest of civilised society?
b) On an individual level regardless of the above, is Choi's position compromised beyond repair? Has he sacrificed his military career for the sake of a political campaign? It would most definitely be construed as an act of defiance against authority and policy.
No the reason is because special favors are given to females including promotions, shorter work hours and other special treatment.
That's caused by the same problem really. They should be treated as equals not given special treatment or discriminated against because of their gender.
No, you don't understand. As long as they don't OPENLY Show that they are gay, there is no problem. The don't ask, is for everyone else, the don't tell is the gays. ALSO, sexual relations with ANYONE is forbidden during times of war unless you are married.
I felt I understood rather well actually. If someone is openly gay they can't be in the military, if someone is openly straight they can be. It's not like gays who want to be in the military are going to constantly be hitting on their fellow soldiers they are there to serve thier country just like any other soldier. If it's forbidden to have sexual relation with anyone in times of war unless you're married then I know several soldiers that should be discharged and they aren't gay. That is unless I "misunderstood" again.
Denial in marriage should be enforced, and that is not pain
Actually it is. To tell gays they can't get married is denying that they are equal and that is pain. It may not be physical pain but it's emotional pain.
I PERSONALLY THINK THAT they can choose to be gay or not
There are quite a few studies about whether or not people choose to be gay. Most experts agree that they don't. (Here's a link to an article with lots of other links for anyone who wants to check that fact even though the person I quoted said they can't do anything with it.)
We could conclude that there is only a few gay soldiers in armies before and now.
You can't really make any conclusions if you can't get the facts.
[quote]You have 1 female for every 300 men. Sorry, but that only breeds conflict.
That on the other hand, is almost unequivocally true. However, there are also regulations regarding sexual conduct in military person and those who decide to enlist should be the paragons of our soceity; not goons who are going to get in a fist fight over a girl. [/quote]
Of coarse it is not possible. I just dont like them and dont wannna be a part of them. Thats all im saying! I dont like them cuz of coarse it is against my beliefs and im scared of them. Im NOT DOING ANYTHING TO THEM!
The text I wrote which you quoted before writing what I quoted was not directed at you specifically, but at the general "you". Please don't feel attacked. I know better than to pick fights with people who knows others may disagree with them, even when I think their perception of life is faulty. 'Specially when the disagreeing is rooted in irrational dislikes (phobias of all kinds are most often irrational).
*sideglance at the rest of the general discussion* I really should learn to stay out of this section...
There's plenty of intelligent ones in here, but durrrrrrrrr.... Ignorance thrives also.
That's caused by the same problem really. They should be treated as equals not given special treatment or discriminated against because of their gender.
Honestly I think the case is much stronger for homosexuals than it is for females. Females don't have the same upper body strength as men, it's human physiology. Homosexuals in the military would be able to meet the same physical standards of all the other soldiers. In any case, women aren't allowed into frontline combat units, in the UK military at least, so I don't think it presents a big problem. I have no problem wth women wanting to serve their country and entering the military, but I think it a tad naive for people to expect equal treatment in what is a heavily androcentric micro society.
I understand you dissagree with me 100%. I just dont like them and I dissagree with them. Its against my beliefs and i dont think they should have their rights to marry. A lot of people dissagree with me, cuz i know others have different beliefs. I believe that it is not right for them to have their rights because i dont agree with them and they can really creep me out. And i dont go in rallys or some crap like that to stop it. But dont attack me just cuz i dont agree or like them.
Thats it. im entitled to myself and i just dont like them. You cant change that. Everybody can call me ignorant, but its my thing.
Dont think this is my first conversation about this. I talked to others, and tried to be as open minded about gays as i can, but its just something inside of me, my beliefs, and i just dont think its right. Im sorry if you dont agree with me and maybe hate me for this, but its just what i believe in.
I just decided to end it cuz it wasnt going anywhere. I cant except them and none of this is gonna make me like em. If we kept going with all this crap about me not liking them, it wont go anywhere.
Again, im entitled to myself and it is me that does not like it. Thats it. Im done with it
Please don't feel attacked.
I wasnt directing this to you, but everybody else. I wasnt trying to start a fight with you? Sorry if it looked like that. I dont think im mistreating them, I understand that you guys think that me not promoting their rights is mistreating them. I understand that you are accusing me of mistreating them, but u can say that. I dont think its mistreating them and i just dont agree with them.
AGAIN, THATS IT, I JUST DONT LIKE THEM AND THATS IT. IM SORRY IF YOU WONT LIKE ME FOR THE REST OF TIME FOR THIS, but thats my thing.
. . .so you back out when you can't provide an answer? Whatever.
I don't hate you, but I despise your opinion. You contradict yourself and can't back it up, even. But whatever. You have your opinion, you have your double standards and you have your contradictions, and those can't be changed. Whatever.
Well, alt, i have a feeling that u really want to continue. I told you whatever i think, but after a while of thinking im begining to reconsider, and i guess it will only settle if we reach something in which i think we will in the following:
First, let me add onto the last post. I respect that the fact that you are defending what you believe in. You defend the minority and try to stop the "ain" for them. I really respect this since this is what i do, except for races. But its just the group of people that i dont agree with, because of my beliefs and like i said, its a gut-instinct that just tells me not to like them.
. . .so you back out when you can't provide an answer? Whatever.
Im sorry, i didnt see you asking any question to me. If you did, ask it again.
But adding onto my last post again, with the segregation thing and the denail in marrige, it will never happen. Inevitably, as i see it, gays will get their rights to marry, in which I see it wrong. But what will i do? Nothing. I cant. I'll just move on with it even though i dont agree with them. I know the kind of pain they feel sometimes, having people against you, but again, i cant accept them because I believe it is wrong.
I cant change the people that dont think like me. Even though i, again, dont agree with gay people or like them because of their ways and because they creep hell out of me. Still they are going to have it their way.
So yea, im admitting they are going to have their rights in this country. (Even though im really against them.) I still dont like them because of all the things they do. Its hard for me to say that they deserve these rights, please understand that because their methods are against mine. But they are definatly gonna do that and if its causing them that much pain, let them have it. I dont agree with it, but they are going to have it. Now, this can be really controversial, and please understand that i am a muslim for what im about to say. But in my eyes and what i believe in, they will pay for their misdoings. I believe that God will send them into the fire. Thats my beliefs and i just wanted to touch into that because it will lead into this:
So, believing in what i believe, and after reconsidering, i guess they can have their rights. Again, im not happy about it. I didnt realize my beliefs before when i made my first comment, but now i guess it is better for them to have their rights because it will not be a controversial thing anymore. But, in my beliefs, they will have to pay on the final day. Please understand my beliefs.
So yea, i still dont like them and think that its against what i believe in. It angers me sometimes, but what am i to do? I guess i'll just have to wait till the final day.....
Hope this will get us on the same page here now that i started to reconsider this.
I still dont like them because of all the things they do.
What do they do?
My point is, you have no reason to dislike them. It's pointless disdain, and you obviously don't know enough about homosexuals to form a reliable opinion. They don't do bad things more or less than any other person, they don't have more misdoings to pay for then any other human, and they're not sub-human like you think they are. You give these controversial opinions over people, but you have no reason other than 'I think they're wrong because I think they're wrong.' I know you're being as kind about it as possible and I don't mean to flame, but it's really pathetic. It's pointless controversy, pointless disdain, pointless prejudice.
My question is: Do you have a good reason as to why you dislike homosexuals and think they don't deserve full rights?
My question is: Do you have a good reason as to why you dislike homosexuals and think they don't deserve full rights?
Well first, like i had said, i dont agree with them at all. My beliefs has it that gays are part of the wrong doers, its complex to explain cuz in the quaran its like paragraphs that explain it. Just bottom line, it is against my religion to be gay.
I know gay people arent sub-human. They are just as equal as me, like i had said. But the fact that they are people that has gone against my religion, its hard to except them. In my belief, god gave us a man and a woman to breed and expand life. He didnt give us a man and a man. But im not saying that everybody that goes against my religion, i dont like. I deal with them, you know, and get on with my life. But in this case, it is different:
Another reason i may not like them is because, like i said, something inside of me just "tells" me to reject them. Its really hard to explain, they just really scare me. And i just dont want to stay away from them. Its really hard to explain to u. Its not like im shivering in the corner if a gay person appears, its just i dont want them near me and i begin to feel uncomfortable.
I know you think thats pathetic, but you have to take into account that im muslim too. My viewings are different than yours and i tried to explain the best i could.
If you still think im pathetic, so be it. Thats what i think and feel. I will never assualt or even curse at a gay person. I just posted what i feel, man. I hope i answered whatever you wanted to know.
but you have to take into account that im muslim too.
Like that's an excuse. I know people who are muslim, christian, buddhist, whatever & they accept gay people just fine, because it's none of their buisness & they're not hurting anyone.
You seem to be missing alt's point as well - it's not about what you feel, it's why you feel it. Or, do you have a good reason to feel it. Though, I do think Alt is having difficulty grasping the concept that:
No, you don't have a good reason for why you feel it, you just do. I think it's kind of funny... and sad. But whatever.
I don't think it's pathetic you're scared of them - I have multiple phobias, and they're not something you can control easily. What I think is pathetic is not the fear, but that you can't back up your opinion that they don't deserve rights with anything but religion - and being anti-gay isn't exactly a major part of any religion, it's just another outlet for hatred.
I do grasp the concept that you just feel it, and it's not that that I think is pathetic, but that your conscious opinion that they don't deserve full rights and should be segregated, and the fact you can't give a nonreligious reason for either.
Females don't have the same upper body strength as men, it's human physiology. Homosexuals in the military would be able to meet the same physical standards of all the other soldiers.
It is biological fact that women can't become strong as men can. As far as I know promotion in the military is not just based on physical strength. If there are women who can't accept that they cannot be as strong as men then that is thier own problem. I don't think they should be given breaks just because they are women though. Expecting to be treated specially just because you are a woman is sexist too just the same as men thinking they need to treat women differently.
I also want to point something out. Being homosexual does not automatically mean that you are a man! There are homosexual women too. It's the tendency of a person to be attracted to people of the same sex, not that of a man to be attracted to other men. So not all homosexual soldiers would be able to meet the physical standards of male soldiers, just the male ones.
But im not saying that everybody that goes against my religion, i dont like. I deal with them, you know, and get on with my life. But in this case, it is different: Another reason i may not like them is because, like i said, something inside of me just "tells" me to reject them. Its really hard to explain, they just really scare me.
I think that most of the fear you feel about gays probably comes from your religious perspective. I mean no offense here I'm only putting forth a thoery. Perhaps some of the fear comes from an unrecognized belief that even associating with anyone gay will be a mark against you in the eyes of god or maybe a subconscious feeling that being gay is somehow contagious (which it's not) or perhaps it's a fear that you may begin to recognize homosexual tendencies in yourself. It may come from one of those things, a combination of all of them, or something completely different. I also have to say that your feelings towards gay shouldn't be different, you should either dislike everyone that goes against your religion or no one that does. It seems like something there can't really be middle ground on. You may deal with people who are gay everyday and not even know it. Even being openly gay doesn't mean that everyone you encounter (you=the gay peron, not anyone specific posting here) is going to know that you are gay. Not everyone who is gay acts any differently from you're average staight person, in many cases the differances are all internal and aren't on display for the whole world to notice. Yes there are gay men who act girly (Adam Lambert, Clay Aiken) and gay women who act kind of manly (Ellen DeGeneres, Rosie O'Donnell) but that doesn't mean that all gays display the habits of the opposite sex or that all people who display the tendencies of the opposite sex are gay (thus the birth of the phrase metrosexual).
They have no reason to do such a thing, and I find it a disgrace to the U.S. for taking these actions. I really don't like it when people discriminate againts homosexuals. In my eyes, it is just as bad as being racist. It is a hate crime!
Oh yes, and another thing! Anyone who believes that God hates homosexuals, in my opinion, is wrong. God does NOT hate anyone. He loves us all, and created us the way we are. Why would he create something just to hate it? Answer THAT!
I know you think thats pathetic, but you have to take into account that im muslim too.
So you just blindly follow a religion? -.- That doesn't sound very smart to me.
Btw, sorry about posting so much people! I just have alot to say about this kind of topic! I strongly support homosexual rights and that kind of stuff. :P
