Yes, I realize that this thread already exists - 13 pages and over a month back.
I'd like to remake it, I don't see why an issue such as this should fall from our eye.
This time around I'd like to focus more around the legality and the taboo side of abortion. That doesn't mean we shouldn't still include the aspects of the original thread though.
Should abortion be kept away from the public eye? Or should it be something that we openly discuss?
Should abortion be legal everywhere? Under what circumstances? How could those circumstances be judged to be the right ones? Do we follow the 'lesser of two evils' idea or do we take a separate path?
I personally feel that abortion is a women's choice, if abortion is the best option in a situation then it should be the one that is taken. As a man I really have no say in what a woman does with her body. But what if I was going to be the father of a child she didn't want to give birth to? I'm not sure about those situations - should the father have equal say to the mother?
'What if a murderer doesn't want to go to jail' Then ya shouldn't have donnnit.
Tell me, two people are climbing a mountain - one accidentally breaks the others safety equipment. The other person then falls to their death - Is the person that broke the safety equipment a murderer? Should they face the consequences of an accident? Or should they have the right to be acquitted of their actions?
Is the person that broke the safety equipment a murderer? Should they face the consequences of an accident? Or should they have the right to be acquitted of their actions?
Yes the person is a murderer, yes they should be trialed for murder but for a certain degree, the lesser one if it is determined as an acident, and anyways how does this aply to anything? Even if the baby was an acident if you kill it that part isn't an acident in the case of an abortion, you pay for your mistakes, accidents or not.
Condoms break. Some times they have a few bears and forget. Sometimes they just plane forget. Having a child is a huge financial and emotional responsibility, why give them someone they do not want?
You know there's this thing called adoption. So debate with me why can't a women carry a fetus for nine months to give it an entire life?
You know there's this thing called adoption. So debate with me why can't a women carry a fetus for nine months to give it an entire life?
Yes but think about the overpopulation we are already experiencing. Then take into account that there are ~1 million abortions performed per annum. Now we have 1 million more members of our nation per year, and within ~16-18 years you will see those 1 million citizens begin to reproduce, thus greatly increasing the strain on our society. Honestly abortion is a cheaper alternative.
Not to mention that children are already on long waiting lists to find families, and many are never even adopted, and then we add to that waiting list each year? All that will do is drastically increase the number of young children taken as wards of the state, forced into foster care, and thus burdening our already broke federal government.
Yes but think about the overpopulation we are already experiencing. Then take into account that there are ~1 million abortions performed per annum. Now we have 1 million more members of our nation per year, and within ~16-18 years you will see those 1 million citizens begin to reproduce, thus greatly increasing the strain on our society. Honestly abortion is a cheaper alternative.
So kill people to allow Americans to waste the same amount we waste now? Why not give promote conservation and new technologies, such as vertical farming, that are helping to reduce the problems with overpopulation.
Not to mention that children are already on long waiting lists to find families, and many are never even adopted, and then we add to that waiting list each year? All that will do is drastically increase the number of young children taken as wards of the state, forced into foster care, and thus burdening our already broke federal government.
So tax us more, is money really worth more than a human's chance at life? I think you're over exaggerating the amount of children in foster care.
I think you're over exaggerating the amount of children in foster care.
Let's look at some facts.
The 2007 NSCH includes information on 91,642 focal children, representing 73.8 million children throughout the United States.
About 127,000 children were adopted annually in the United States(last available statistic. Previous years were similar, ranging from 114k - 132k)
- ChildWelfare.gov
Number of abortions performed in the US. Last report available-2007: 1,206,200
- NRLC.com
On September 30, 2006, there were an estimated 510,000 children in foster care.Almost a quarter (24 percent) were in relative homes, and nearly half (46 percent) were in nonrelative foster family homes.
- ChildWelfare.gov
So from this information we see that: ~125K children are adopted per annum. ~500k children are in foster care, half with non relatives and available for adoption. Over 1.2 Million abortions were performed the last recorded year, 2007.
If we use this information we see that even if HALF of the aborted fetuses were allowed to come to term and be put up for adoption (and using the statistic that 1/4 of those in foster care are with relatives) we would find that another ~450k children would be entering nonfamilial foster care awaiting adoption, providing foster families could be found for all of them.
If we use this information we see that even if HALF of the aborted fetuses were allowed to come to term and be put up for adoption (and using the statistic that 1/4 of those in foster care are with relatives) we would find that another ~450k children would be entering nonfamilial foster care awaiting adoption, providing foster families could be found for all of them.
I stand corrected but I return to my other point; actually you know what people just need to stop being idiots. It's called being selfless and intelligent in your own decisions, you want to have sex? I wont stop you but don't act like you didn't know pregnancy is a possible ramification of your actions and further don't blame society or anything else for your problems.
We all just need to grow up and get a grasp of reality and what's really important.
*cough* Still throwing money at a problem seems to help perhaps giving free private schooling to children in middle school and above who are still in foster care.
Sorry for the double post. Forgot some important information.
Cost to raise 1 child in the US, 2 parent family, Before-tax income: $39,100 to $65,800 = $ 170,460
- USDA
Let's multiply that by the ~450 children entering foster care, using the relatively conservative figures from my previous post.
450k children x $170,460 = $76,707,000,000 Wow. 76.7 Billion dollars. Sure you can pay that through taxes?
Also, that's not taking into account any added costs for children with special needs, disabilities, deformities, or life threatening diseases. That's on the assumption that we allow 1/2 of abortions to come to term and on the foster care assumption that ~25% will be taken in by family, leaving the rest up for adoption.
Well the war's in the Middle East cost around 720 million dollars a day so cut them off and you have quite a bit of extra funding; further that's taking into account that no foster parents provide anything for their foster children and that these foster children will require as much as the average American child.
Actually in the US foster care is paid by the government a portion of the cost to mitigate the immense financial burden of child rearing. This amount varies by state and age of the child, obviously with older children granting increased funding.
Now due to the fact that funding is often overseen by private agencies it is very difficult to find exact figures, but one figure I have seen was from Denver, CO. A 12yo girl was living with a foster family that was paid ~$800 per month.
Now if we use this rather conservative figure as a bedrock, and assume that 12 would be about the median age for funding it would be save to assume that funding ranges from $400-$1200 per month, per child. That figures out to ~$2 Billion per annum. Quite a bit of state funding for 450k children in my opinion, however nowhere near the true costs of child rearing.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm all for proper sexual education, but really education isn't to blame for even the majority. According to a recent MSNBC study:
Half of the roughly 1.2 million U.S. women who have abortions each year are 25 or older. Only about 17 percent are teens. About 60 percent have given birth to least one child prior to getting an abortion.
A disproportionately high number are black or Hispanic. And regardless of race, high abortion rates are linked to hard times. Often the women getting the abortions say they act in the interests of children they already have.
So the argument of 'scared teens' and 'ineffective sexual education' could only realistically be blamed in only 17% of the 1.2 million cases, and that's just in the US.
I fully believe that people are idiots and need to quit being irresponsible, selfish, demanding, spoiled, ignorant [insert expletive of your choice here].
However I am saying that I know that won't happen unless eugenics is rapidly enacted, and we know that won't happen, so we are left with an imperfect answer to an imperfect system.
I do believe that a woman should have the option available to her, but I don't think that simply because the option is there that one should put themselves into a situation where it's use may become a necessity.
Right, right but your original facts don't the support the idea that we currently can easily afford to pay for foster care and doubling that amount wouldn't be that much of a problem?
As for my take on this, abortion is wrong. The only time I will find abortion acceptable is in cases of rape. For those of you who say all this stuff about over population or the fetus isn't a person ect. Please don't start. It seems we've been defining life the wrong way. You see those cells...those very first cells, well folks they're alive. Not intelligent life yet, but alive all the same. Life is life.
