This topic is based upon your personal opinion on whether abortion is wrong or right. I personally believe that it is wrong, and have many reasons for it. You may challenge me if you wish, but please make sense!
I think that it's perfectly acceptable. We actually had a long debate about this in which I presented my opinions. If you would like I will find them and copy them here for you.
Actually we can even debate that abortion is morally permissible given the premises laid out in the Bible about God. This following philosophical argument was taken from youtube user SisyphusRedeemed who is, in his professional life, Associate Professor of Philosophy at Southern Indiana University. I use his argument because, from a theological standpoint, the premises are held to be true by the vast majority of Christians.
1) God knows everything. (Assumption) 2) God knows which fetuses are going to be aborted (1) 3) God is all Good. (Assumption) 4) God would never do anything cruel (3) 5) It would be cruel of God to ensoul a fetus that He knew would never be able to receive the redemption of Christ. (Assumption) 6) Therefore God does not ensoul any fetus that is aborted (4-5) 7) If a living thing does not have a soul then killing it is not murder. (Assumption) 8) Abortion is not murder. (4-7) 9) There is no other reason that abortion is wrong (Assumption) 10) Therefore, abortion is morally permissible. QED (8-9)
Abortion is a difficult issue that is all but impossible to be put into a right/wrong concept. There are pros and cons to both sides of the argument and both sides have valid points. In all reality the truth of the matter is both sides are correct and both sides are wrong. So, let me play Devil's Advicate for both sides here for a moment.
First of all, there are obviously situations where abortion is a good choice. A woman who has been raped and becomes pregnant, a woman who will die from carrying and/or delivering the child (there is a reason being pregnant is refered to as carrying your own coffin) and/or where the mother is unfit to care for the child or simply won't.
Now then, on the other hand, like it or not that fetus is, at some stage, a human life. As SirNoobalot said, we kill millions of animals wholesale every day. True, to a degree, but this is where a lot of people are going to hate me though it is true, human life is more valuable to us than animal life. But, let's move on from that. While there are good reasons for an abortion, there are also bad. No woman should be forced into having one by family, friends or a combination there of. Second, just becouse a woman doesn't have the money to raise a child does not mean she is unfit, the poor have raised children since society began and will continue to raise them, many of them doing as good a job of the wealthy. Now, some women may be considered unfit to be mothers, however in the end only they can make the decision to have the abortion and no one can force it on them. Also, this issue has been raised before, but father's rights. Does the father not have a right to his child, as any biologist can tell you, it takes two to make a baby. I am sure there are other reasons against abortion but they aren't coming to my mind at this point in time, perhaps later.
Now, in the end, I believe compromise is the best solution to this abortion debate. I personally believe that abortion should be legal and the mother and ONLY the mother's choice to have, but there should be limits. Counsling on the psyhcological effects of having an abortion and a pro/con list of having the procedure. There should also be a line in the sand drawn that unless the pregnancy is above normal danger to the mother's life it should be illegal, let's say 3 months for arguments sake. There should be a waiting period of about a week to ensure such a life changing decision is not emotionally based and that should be about that. Also, as I mentioned above father's rights. If the father wants the child he should have to sign a legal document saying he will assume full responsibility for that child if he wishes to block the abortion and if he fails to comply with the document it would be considered possibly a state felony with a maximum sentance of 1 year in prison and a fine not to excede $10,000. With a line in the sand and the proper precautions set up to ensure no woman is being forced to have the abortion there should be little problem with legal abortion. I believe the standards I set up can appease both sides of the argument (besides the zealots of course).
So, with my idea Abortion would be legal up to 3 months into the pregnancy and illegal afterwards unless medically necessary by determination by a competant doctor. The mother would have to recieve counscling before the abortion, perhaps from a doctor who will not profit off the operation on the pros AND cons of the procedure and no mother of any age or social status can have an abortion forced on them. The BIOLOGICAL father of the child can petition for the abortion to be blocked if he is seen to be capable of being a fit father but he must sign a legal document promising the state he will assume full legal responsibilty for the child and if he fails to do so he will be charged with a state felony with a prison sentance not to excede 1 year and a fine not to excede $10,000. Fair? Thoughts? This was a bit rushed so I appologize if it's sloppy.
The true matter at hand is that government is in the business of imposing moral values on it's citizens, and this is flat out wrong. There is no collective consciousness that gives us all the same morals, therefore to impose your ideals on another infringes on their rights to personal liberty.
Morals are unique to each individual, and while there are some things which most can agree on, by and large morals constitute a massive gray area and to try to make black and white comparisons is fallacious and invalid when applied in this fashion.
There are varying definitions of life, and when human life begins, hence the nature of the entire debate. Let's look at the science behind human development.
13 weeks or 3 months: The fetus is about 3 inches long and weighs about an ounce. Fingernails and bones can be seen. Over 90% of all abortions are performed before this stage
26 weeks or 6 months: The fetus 14" long and almost two pounds. The lungs' bronchioles develop. Interlinking of the brain's neurons begins. The higher functions of the fetal brain turn on for the first time. Some rudimentary brain waves indicating consciousness can be detected. The fetus will probably be able to feel pain for the first time. It has become conscious of its surroundings. The fetus has become a sentient human life for the first time.
- Pediatrics, Wisconsin State University
1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.
Although if your older it may seem a bit wrong. what if that child could have been president.
Actually its far more likely that he will be another gang member, Hitler, or general murderer than president. We have one president every four years and countless murders.
Killing anything alive is murder. Even if the mother is raped, it's not the baby's fault. It's also not the baby's fault if the mother decides to take the risk of getting pregnant before marriage. If the mother does not want to deal with raising the baby, she can give birth then put it up for adoption. The baby's heart starts beating usually before the mother even realizes she's pregnant. I am a Christian, but not all of my morals are based off of the Bible, mind you. This debate was not started to enflame Christian points of view. Abortion goes completely against the Bible, though, as an answer to MRWalker, because in plain words the Bible says, "Do not shed innocent blood." A baby is innocent.
Also, the Constitution tells us that all men are created equal. Is a young baby not a person? This relates to racism of black people. Just because they appear and may be seen different than normal people, both babies and blacks are human.
I also have a question for you to think about.
What if YOU were aborted? What if either of your parents were aborted?
You would not exist. One out of every three babies in America are aborted. A third of American lives - a third of taxpayers, if I dare say so - are eliminated from existance in the belief that they are not really people yet. I also dare say that they say the babies are not really people yet because they don't want to feel guilty about erasing human life.
Very well then. In order to debate your position we need to arrive at a mutually agreed upon definition of what makes a person a person. Personally I look at it from a purely scientific stand point. We must be capable of conscious thought. Whether or not we use that capacity, such as in the case of those in a coma, we are still capable of it.
Any fetus prior to 26 weeks is not capable of conscious thought and they can't even feel pain. By that definition I don't feel that a fetus prior to 26 weeks gestation is a person, and I find that no harm is done to a being that is incapable of feeling pain or has never even been aware.
Bear in mind that out of the abortions performed after 26 weeks, the overwhelming majority are performed out of respect for the health and life of the mother. Therefore I would say that any abortion prior to 26 weeks gestation is purely the decision of the mother and father, and any after that time should only be performed in a case of medical necessity.
Killing anything alive is murder. Even if the mother is *****, it's not the baby's fault.
Not the mothers fault, but you want the mother to be forced to live with it, until its born, a baby fits the definition of parasite.
The baby's heart starts beating usually before the mother even realizes she's pregnant.
Contrary to ancient Egyptian knowledge, your conscience does not exist in your heart.
Abortion goes completely against the Bible, though, as an answer to MRWalker, because in plain words the Bible says, "Do not shed innocent blood." A baby is innocent.
Not everyone lives by the bible, why should it dictate others(not to mention the contradictory murders god has done)?
Also, the Constitution tells us that all men are created equal. Is a young baby not a person?
Nope.
I also have a question for you to think about.
What if YOU were aborted? What if either of your parents were aborted?
Then obviously I would not have been born, or able to care.
I have a question for you, what if on the night of your conception, your dad wore a condom? Or your mother was sick so your dad "squeezed that easy one out"?
I also dare say that they say the babies are not really people yet because they don't want to feel guilty about erasing human life.
Damb.I just murdered broccoli! Its alive, so by killing it to eat apparently I committed murder.
Even if the mother is *****, it's not the baby's fault
The "baby" is a fetus. It is the difference between a hut and a mansion. "If you got rapped, to bad. You are having this rapist's baby, wither you like it or not!"
If the mother does not want to deal with raising the baby, she can give birth then put it up for adoption.
The already crowded adoption homes getting an extra fifty thousand? Not going to work.
The baby's heart starts beating usually before the mother even realizes she's pregnant.
Whats your point? It isn't actually pumping blood yet(if memory serves) and "having a heart" doesn't make something alive or dead.
am a Christian, but not all of my morals are based off of the Bible, mind you
Great, so you don't go around stoning people then?
This debate was not started to enflame Christian points of view
Awww. Ill give a go at it anyway.
, "Do not shed innocent blood." A baby is innocent.
Once again, it is not a baby. Second, according to your religion NO ONE IS INNOCENT! According to you, we have all sinned even the fetus.
Also, the Constitution tells us that all men are created equal. Is a young baby not a person?
Nope. ITS A FETUS!
This relates to racism of black people. Just because they appear and may be seen different than normal people, both babies and blacks are human.
THEY ARE FETUS! And fetus do not have the ability to think, feel pain, and are basically parasites. That is way different.
What if YOU were aborted? What if either of your parents were aborted?
What if your parents wore a condom on the day you were made? What if your grandparents on the day your parents were made? It would have the same effect.
You would not exist. One out of every three babies in America are aborted. A third of American lives - a third of taxpayers, if I dare say so - are eliminated from existance in the belief that they are not really people yet. I also dare say that they say the babies are not really people yet because they don't want to feel guilty about erasing human life.
Would not existing be so horrible(Or, according to your religion either heaven or hell) and they are not humans yet.
Now I will yell this once more, just to make it clear. FETUS ARE NOT BABIES! They are in a further stage, it is like saying refined iron is a tank. Its just a little further down then the pig iron.
MRWalker82, you seem to be a fan of small government and reducing or getting rid of "Nanny" and/or "Police" state style laws from your last post. I apologize if I have that wrong but that's just my assumption. Normally, I would agree with you 100%, however, abortion is a difficult issue simply due to what all it entails.
First of all, let's be honest, I am male and from your profile you seem to be male as well so neither one of us can ever truley understand pregnancy or what it is like to have an abortion but we can argue philisophically. Now, I believe that abortion up to a certain point is acceptable, however after a certain point it is not. I am no biologist and I would like to admit that early incase any of my statements are incorrect, so please don't cite me. My idea that there should be a line in the sand with abortion means that when the fetus becomes a human to a reasonable degree it is more than just a growth and an organisim with some form of rights. I believe late term abortions are wrong (unless medically required and with the mother's permission) though early term are acceptable. What exactly constitutes early and late term I'm not exactly sure, though with the information you presented it would seem to be before or at 26 weeks.
Now, I mentioned father's rights and that is a difficult issue. But, I believe to make this law fair the male's rights must also be taken into consideration. Now, of course it is the woman's body, but we are assuming she willingly slept with the male and as such put herself at risk of pregnancy. Let's face it, we all know what that action's biological purpose is and engaging in intercourse does put one at risk of becoming pregnant, that I believe is fact. So, through consenting to the act, has the woman surrendered some form of responsibility of the child to the male. After all, it was his sperm that fertalized the egg and if the child was born he could be expected to pay for the child's care. So, as he is somewhat responsible for the child, he also has some form of rights if he wishes for the child to be in his care. Now, I can see the risk of some religious fathers not wanting the abortion and blocking it and then not taking full responsibility for the child so that is why I said make it a state jail felony with a maximum sentence of 1 year in jail and a fine not to excede $10,000. If the father blocks the abortion by promising the state he will assume full responsibility for the child and he fails to do so he would face the consequences. Jails are overcrowded but the state still has the fine.
In the end I would say abortion is a difficult issue to argue, though one that must be argued. It is a woman's body, but at some point it is a child and the mother understood what she was putting herself at risk for when she slept with the male. At some point in the womb that growth of cells is a form of human being and must have some form of rights, the real question is when. From MRWalker82's last post and using his sources I'd say somewhere between 13 and 26 weeks though I can't be sure. Both sides are argued by zealots but we must compromise to make this work, that is the key to democracy, something that can appease both sides to some degree. I assume we can all agree that no woman should be forced to have an abortion (I hope such a thing is but an urban legend) and that to some unknown point of time no woman should be refused an abortion. While I agree that government and other organizations need to loose a lot of power over the public I believe it is government's job to look out for all of its citizens and on this issue it means that at some point in the time of the pregnancy non-absolutley needed abortion needs to be illegal but up to and before that point it needs to be the mother's decision, and her's alone. Thoughts, opinions?
at some point in the time of the pregnancy non-absolutley needed abortion needs to be illegal but up to and before that point it needs to be the mother's decision, and her's alone. Thoughts, opinions?
I do agree, and as I said in my previous post, any abortion prior to 26 weeks gestation, at which time the fetus is capable of conscious thought and the perception of pain, should be allowed at the mother's discretion, and with consent of the father if applicable. Anything after that point and you are causing pain to the fetus and ending a life capable of consciousness. I find that should only be done in cases where the mother's health is at risk, or if it becomes known that the fetus may have either a life threatening disease or a deformity which would drastically reduce the quality of life available to the child.
So, 26 weeks for conscious thought and perception of pain, that sounds like a good point to draw the line. If a one week waiting period was to be part of the process I would assume the cut off would be 25 weeks. I personally like the waiting period, a sort of time to look over the pros and cons list, though maybe only two or three days would be required. If 26 weeks is the cut off or if the pregnancy is a severe risk to the mother's health than that sounds fair. Looks like I agree with you MRWalker.
