What a load of bullshit - a 'loving God' sends plagues, disasters, famine and a myriad of other EVIL things to 'test' us? He tries to make us sin and go to hell? A 'loving God' does this?
Firstly, he made evil, which is sin. He even admits it in the book of Isaiah.
God is all knowing right? So he knows everything. He knew that if he made man that they would eat of the forbidden fruit. He also created everything, including the devil who was once an angel. He knew the devil would fall, he knew the devil would tempt Eve and he let it happen, already knowing the outcome. He did not give Adam and Eve an understanding of right and wrong so they couldn't understand why the weren't supposed to eat the fruit.
And then, after God created people, knowing full well that they would eat the fruit he told them not to because he allowed the devil into the garden he banishes them. How can this logically be an action of a loving god?
Think of it in terms of a parent. A father tells his children not to play with fire, but never explains why. Then he has a pyromaniac child from down the block come hang out with his kids when he's not home. He even buys them matches, but still says they aren't supposed to play with fire. Then, when his kids DO play with fire he punishes them.
Had he explained why fire was bad, had he not bought the matches, had he not invited the pyromaniac kid from down the block, had he been at home, this wouldn't have happened. So, because of choices HE made his children made an innocent decision for which they were punished.
Had God not put that tree there, had God given Adam and Eve an understanding of why the fruit was bad, had he not allowed the devil into the garden, had he not created evil the original sin would have never happened. God is to blame, not man.
What a load of bull**** - a 'loving God' sends plagues, disasters, famine and a myriad of other EVIL things to 'test' us? He tries to make us sin and go to hell? A 'loving God' does this?
If we were to do such a thing it would be sin but he is God and cannot sin. Why do you call it evil Avorne and who said he tries to make us sin?
God is all knowing right? So he knows everything. He knew that if he made man that they would eat of the forbidden fruit. He also created everything, including the devil who was once an angel. He knew the devil would fall, he knew the devil would tempt Eve and he let it happen, already knowing the outcome. He did not give Adam and Eve an understanding of right and wrong so they couldn't understand why the weren't supposed to eat the fruit.
You seem to confse a knowledge of sin with sin itself which is not true.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Do they need a clearer message?
And then, after God created people, knowing full well that they would eat the fruit he told them not to because he allowed the devil into the garden he banishes them. How can this logically be an action of a loving god?
He did allow him into the Garden as a test.
Think of it in terms of a parent. A father tells his children not to play with fire, but never explains why. Then he has a pyromaniac child from down the block come hang out with his kids when he's not home. He even buys them matches, but still says they aren't supposed to play with fire. Then, when his kids DO play with fire he punishes them.
Kids still know it's wrong even without knowing why.
Had God not put that tree there, had God given Adam and Eve an understanding of why the fruit was bad, had he not allowed the devil into the garden, had he not created evil the original sin would have never happened. God is to blame, not man.
First off God did not create evil and second Adam and Eve still knew it was wrong without knowing why and even if they did know why who is to say they wouldn't do the same thing?
Ahem, God created EVERYTHING - does the Bible not make that clear?
No he created most things and gave us the ability to create others. In this case it was Satan who first tempted Eve and Eve who first went against Gods will.
Kids still know it's wrong even without knowing why
No they don't! They don't have an innate knowledge of what they are and aren't supposed to do. That is up the parents to teach, and God is the parent in my analogy. He failed to teach them anything. "Because I said so" is the most BS line any parent ever thought up. It's selfish, ignorant, lazy, and ineffectual.
[quote]God is all knowing right? So he knows everything. He knew that if he made man that they would eat of the forbidden fruit.
You seem to confse a knowledge of sin with sin itself which is not true.[/quote] He is pretty much right. God told them not to eat the fruit, and knew that they would be tempted. He could have prevented it. But he did it. He tempted them and put this tree there although there does not seem to be any sense in this tree other than to be there and be a symbol of God's sin: temptation.
No they don't! They don't have an innate knowledge of what they are and aren't supposed to do. That is up the parents to teach, and God is the parent in my analogy. He failed to teach them anything. "Because I said so" is the most BS line any parent ever thought up. It's selfish, ignorant, lazy, and ineffectual.
He told them they would die if they ate the fruit.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
So yes he told them why they should not eat the fruit.
He is pretty much right. God told them not to eat the fruit, and knew that they would be tempted. He could have prevented it. But he did it. He tempted them and put this tree there although there does not seem to be any sense in this tree other than to be there and be a symbol of God's sin: temptation.
You confuse temptation with testing he does not tempt them to sin but tests them to see if they will sin.
God created Satan, thereby (indirectly), creating evil and going against his own will.
Creating Satan with the ability to sin is not going against his will.
Tell me: what was Hitler's motive for the Holocaust? darwinism
First off this has no baring on the argument whether your particular deity exists or not. Second Hitler was influenced by eugenics not Darwinian evolution.
2. >.> Mage where is your wall of links? And to adress the oxygen issue, what "roof" do you have that it should have run out by now? I have proof that we have an oxygen cycle to renew oxygen.
I'm not home at the moment I will be posting my wall-o-links in the Carbon-14 debate later.
Before you attack my religion, friend, I would like to ask you a few questions:
How is asking that you provide evidence of your claims an attack?
No a perfect being would not create us with such faults or for that matter a world with such fault, the reason for them is the fall of man when adam ate the cursed fruit in direct violation of Gods commands.
So your best argument is because of eating a magic fruit? How does this not equate to a work of fantasy again?
I do not see the contradiction here please explain it to me.
"neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" In other words what Adam and eve did would have no baring on us, thus no original sin.
I will try to find it but there is another verse in the bible that contradicts the above statement and says the sins of the father do carry over to the son.
Also for those of you regarding the story of Adam and Eve as metaphor but Jesus as fact. This would mean Jesus died to cleanse of a sin that never actually happened.
You confuse temptation with testing he does not tempt them to sin but tests them to see if they will sin.
Now that's just a matter of definition. For you, he's testing. For me, he's tempting. He knows very well how it will end and still does it. Why? Doesn't he trust in his own omniscience? Why does he want to test any of us? He knows who is 'good' and who is 'bad'. Why does he have to carry on his little experiments?
He told them they would die if they ate the fruit.
And what is death? And how does a relative newborn, immortal being have any concept of death? Do babies know what death is? Nope. Did God explain? Nope. He simply said "Don't eat the fruit I put there to tempt you." As a parent I find God's treatment of his children immoral and abusive. I certainly don't find such behavior worthy of anything but contempt.
You confuse temptation with testing he does not tempt them to sin but tests them to see if they will sin.
Could you possibly be any more ignorant? What is testing? It IS temptation. That is the test, to see if they could resist the temptation. And, of course, he already knows they won't so why even bother?
Creating Satan with the ability to sin is not going against his will.
Then if it isn't against his will then evil is part of his will, as is sin, which he created. So he wants there to be evil in the world. Gotcha. Sounds like an all-loving deity worthy of praise to me...
If God is all-powerful then he should easily be able to convince the entire world to follow him. The fact that he haven't means that either: a) He doesn't care. b) He doesn't exist. c) He's in the bathroom.
