ForumsWEPRAre you scared of a New World?

41 8086
AnaLoGMunKy
offline
AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

So the world is changing.

Does it worry you?

This topic is in part about the rapid progress within the world and also about humanity having the best opportunities yet wasting them on individuals and logo's. Mage wrote a topic about "faceless inividuals" with a concern that we are merely following the herd, wearing the clothes that are socially acceptable (for the era) and claiming equality thru it all. Im worried about the mindless junk that is repeated on TV and Radio and I think it ties in directly.

This leads me to manipulation. We all manipulate. Its not a bad thing. However I am quite alarmed by the amount of social manipulation that has gone on with advertising and its many, many facets. Merely watch the second part of Century of the Self to gain an understanding on how Government and Corporation have both manipulated mass population into doing things like making women smoke. (I highly suggest the whole program)

I know that I tar government and corporations with the same black, greasy lie infested brush but can you blame me?

Anyone with a shred of intellect and who has studied and looked for the truth will agree that governments lie and so do corporations. The fact that individuals within these organisations have lied repeatedly for personal gain and to the detriment of all should be enough to cause dissent. Yet I am usually tagged as a "conspiracy theorist" or "anarchist" for voicing my concerns. Does my worry hold no weight?

Sometimes humans do a good thing by bringing each other back into line. Sometimes we cause great injustice by threat of alienation if someone speaks up.

And so once again the majority sit back and sink into blissful ignorance while a supposed "depression" goes on. Yet some people are richer than ever, the divide between rich and poor is greater, inflation has gone out of control and good food gets more and more expensive, drugs that help people are withheld and we are told that we cannot ingest "illegal drugs" on threat of criminalisation, jail... or far worse.

So perhaps my message of discontent is not for us all. Some people look on the bright side. Some people look to the light... others look directly AT the light. How does one person address all these things without having some foolproof plan and an argument backed up by endless links to other peoples finding that are all suspect anyway, especially if you dont want to believe the information.

So... How would you convey a message of the times?

How would you say it?

  • 41 Replies
Einfach
offline
Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

Well, if you were to say the #1 thing that you fear in the coming future, what would it be. The OP right now is incredibly broad, and it would be easier if we had something to discuss in particular instead of skimming over a wide variety of things.

A lot of people (at least on this forum) have the attitude that they feel that they are the only enlightened person in masses of robotic mediocrities, who are easily manipulated. How do you know that you yourself are not being manipulated like the others? (Don't take it personally).

No one on this forum has called you an anarchist or a conspiracy theorist yet, so don't stereotype the nonexistent critic. Such a criticism would be useless anyway, because being an anarchist or conspiracy theorist is not inherently wrong.

Why do you think governments and corporations lie? You are grouping them as if they are equal in that they lie. The motive for lying, however, is different.

The major difference between Corporations lying and Governments lying is that an individual must consent to buy a product, even if they are manipulated. Governments require no consent - in a democracy there is the consent of the "majority," but there is no consent on the individual level, and without a bill of rights, there is nothing that governments cannot do.

You act as if it is wrong that some people are rich, while others do not prosper. Taking the devil's advocate, why should this be bad if the person acquired the wealth legitimately? Does one person's fortune cause another's misfortune? Does one person's gain cause another's loss?

Since you addressed drugs, I think I will, too.
According to this article it costs 802 million dollars to bring a drug to market. No doubt, this will affect the cost of drugs.
It costs 10 years to get a drug approved

NoNameC68
offline
NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

The OP right now is incredibly broad, and it would be easier if we had something to discuss in particular instead of skimming over a wide variety of things.


I agree, but we'll address whatever we can and work from there.

However I am quite alarmed by the amount of social manipulation that has gone on with advertising and its many, many facets.


It's easier to spot manipulation for a few reasons.

1. We have more access to information today than we ever have in history, making it much easier to spot examples of manipulation.

2. We interact with more people, businesses, programs, and organizations than we ever have before.

3. We are surrounded by more big names than ever in history, including names of people, businesses, organizations, and so on.

It's not so much because people/businesses/organizations are becoming more manipulative as much as there's just more sources of manipulation out there.

The fact that individuals within these organisations have lied repeatedly for personal gain and to the detriment of all should be enough to cause dissent.


Everyone works toward personal gain, so the motivation itself is not wrong. The means in which they gain is the issue. If they are gaining money through the cooperation of their workers and customers, then I see no reason to be against the company. If the company, however, forces people to work for them (illegal), or sues other corporations and people for trivial matters, or commits fraud, then there's a problem.

One reason so many people are against corporations is because they put small businesses out of business. Sometimes they do so by creating reliable goods that are cheap, and sometimes they do it through cooperation with the government to create regulations and tax increases that small businesses can not afford. The latter being the evil of the two.

Businesses do often resort to manipulation to gain customers, mostly through advertising. Sometimes these corporations use marketing techniques that we may look down upon, such as insurance companies using fear tactics. Cigarette companies used to advertise their products through cartoon characters, such as Fred Flintstone. Now, we live in an age where the government is being unfair by forcing cigarette companies to post disturbing pictures of what may happen to you if you smoke. The government is telling cigarette companies to be honest to their customers by telling them that their cigarettes will ruin their lives. It's a shame how cigarette companies are not allowed to understate the dangers of cigarettes, but it's okay (and required) to greatly exaggerate them.

It's weird that I feel the cigarette companies are the victims, even though they are one of the most dirty legal markets out there. But hey, I believe people should be allowed to smoke without nasty pictures of blackened lungs on their packages. : /

Yet some people are richer than ever, the divide between rich and poor is greater


The gap between rich and poor has nothing to do with being in a recession or depression. Let's assume a company somehow manipulates 80 percent of the population to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on their product. The companies become insanely rich and 80 percent of the population loses hundreds of thousands of dollars and they all of a sudden become poorer. Other companies will sell their products for a cheaper price to gain business, and eventually the value of the dollar will go up.

The gap between rich and poor means nothing, it's the lifestyle the majority of people, both blue collar and working class, can afford.

inflation has gone out of control and good food gets more and more expensive


I'll talk about the cause of inflation later, because I really need to get more facts straight before I foolishly open my mouth (as I often tend to do).

Does one person's gain cause another's loss?


Person A and Person B are stranded on an island. They can each only catch one fish per day, and they both eat only one fish a day. So every day, both people spend their day catching their food.

One day, Person A decides to go a day without food to make a net. Person B does not wish to make such a sacrifice and fishes instead. Person A, after creating his net, realizes he can catch 3 fish a day.

Person A now fishes one day, and takes a break the next two days enjoying himself. Person B asks Person A if he could borrow the net, and they make an agreement. Every day Person B fishes, he must give one of his fish to Person A.

Person B now only has to fish every other day, and Person A only has to fish, I believe, only once every 8 days (I may have miscalculated).

Both Person A and Person B end up better off. Even though Person B is doing more work, Person A was the one who went a day without food to produce the net.

Some observers would say that reducing FDA restrictions would reduce the price of drugs consumers face. I do not believe this to be the case. After the R&D is spent, firms price their drug to maximize profits subject to consumer demand. Reducing R&D costs will reduce the sunk costs, but not the marginal costs for pharmaceutical producers. What reducing FDA restrictions will do is increase a firmâs incentive to invest in drug development, because the revenue threshold to make an adequate return on capital will be reduced with a lower cost of gaining approval.

- Cost to bring drug to market: $802m article

With less money AND time being consumed by the FDA, these companies will be able to make cheaper drugs. After this statement, the author forgets to consider competition. With more money being made off the drugs with less regulations, companies can sell the drugs cheaper as a means of competing with their competitors. This would lower the prices of the drugs.

Let's assume, that the author is in fact correct, and that the drug companies decide that they won't further compete with each other, but will instead invest all the money they saved into more research. The customers STILL win. More research means better drugs or a larger variety of drugs.

As for illegal drugs, marijuana has been proven to be a great stress reliever, which makes it a nice social drug (better than alcohol), while remaining one of the best drugs when it comes to therapy for cancer. Yet, despite all the evidence backing marijuana, many politicians aren't budging.
Efan
offline
Efan
3,086 posts
Nomad

As for illegal drugs, marijuana has been proven to be a great stress reliever, which makes it a nice social drug (better than alcohol), while remaining one of the best drugs when it comes to therapy for cancer. Yet, despite all the evidence backing marijuana, many politicians aren't budging.

Oh, I certainly agree with you. However, all people react differently to drugs which can cause ill effects on the brain. What so and so politicians and people don't realize is that all you need is to get tested and to stay safe and careful in certain situations. Not to mention education and common sense. And speaking of common sense

*now talking to OP*

I believe that people are getting far more foolish, but with decent education; which seems to be less and less these days... I believe you can lead a productive, contented life by exploiting all your given freedoms without manipulation. If the media (and fox) spreads stupidity, turn it off.
If you are lucky enough to be born into a life of choice, then use it to help in whatever way you can. Ignorance is born out of misinformation, so teach those willing to learn. Heck, if people are willing to believe in god then it should be so easy to do some manipulating of the good kind.
MageGrayWolf
offline
MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Mage wrote a topic about "faceless inividuals"


Just for the record, that's not me.
LiveInPeace29
offline
LiveInPeace29
468 posts
Nomad

As long as the new world has black ops I'll be ok.

5hadowles5
offline
5hadowles5
93 posts
Nomad

it is truly about what you do....try not to follow the pack example
everybody wears black and blue with blue jeans you wear red and pink and pink shorts you will be considered as an outsider....

AnaLoGMunKy
offline
AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

A lot of people (at least on this forum) have the attitude that they feel that they are the only enlightened person in masses of robotic mediocrities, who are easily manipulated. How do you know that you yourself are not being manipulated like the others? (Don't take it personally).


I half agree and half not. I dont think people on these forums think they are the only enlightened ones, but I feel we (me included) are desperate to be heard and perhaps think our personal world views are correct. And yes, I am being manipulated, even with my awareness of it I am faaar from immune, and its for this reason I cannot believe it fair when you and others say things like "you have a choice to buy the products" etc. Some things run deeper than our concious. If you manipulate those you can literally control a person. I know this for a fact and its not always bad or malevolent. However what Bernard Frued did to make women smoke is a good example of greedy manipulation that was bad for the masses. That particular idea has so much more depth to which I would like to go into on this thread.

Why do you think governments and corporations lie? You are grouping them as if they are equal in that they lie. The motive for lying, however, is different.

The major difference between Corporations lying and Governments lying is that an individual must consent to buy a product, even if they are manipulated. Governments require no consent - in a democracy there is the consent of the "majority," but there is no consent on the individual level, and without a bill of rights, there is nothing that governments cannot do.


Do you really think that a government can be fair that has politicians who ALSO have interests in the companies they chair and corporations they have shares in. Yes I put them in the same pot because they are in the same pot. How is it that George Bush can lead a nation to war and say its for good when he has lots of money to be made from the oil, rebuilding and connections he has which includes **** Cheney and Donald Rumsfield. These guys all gained from the companies they were part of and affiliated with. So I ask you... can you separate Government and Corporation from that mess? Its one thing to favour your friends, its another to use government powers to achieve that while pulling the wool over your populations eyes.

Everyone works toward personal gain, so the motivation itself is not wrong.

You act as if it is wrong that some people are rich, while others do not prosper. Taking the devil's advocate, why should this be bad if the person acquired the wealth legitimately?


Not saying it is. But... When you have an individual that gets personal gain to the detriment of hundreds, thousands, even millions, I think that should be kept in check. Right now its barely contained and I think its the internet that has caused that because of communication. The reputation of a person or company can landslide because of the opinion that spreads thru communication.

The gap between rich and poor has nothing to do with being in a recession or depression


I would agree that in the broad sense it doesnt. I should have been more specific. Oil companies have ever increasing profits. They charge ever increasing amounts to fill your cars petrol tank. In other countries they charge next to nothing to fill your tank. They blame the recession for high prices yet are gaining more profit than ever. I dont need to be an economist to see we are being swindled (and dont even get me started on the fact that companies like General Motors supress electric car tech so we still use oil and stay dependant). Rich getting richer, poor pay MORE for things because of an idea that oil needs to be more expensive?!?

because I really need to get more facts straight before I foolishly open my mouth (as I often tend to do).


Lol. I have the same problem :P

If the media (and fox) spreads stupidity, turn it off.


I am in the lucky position where I do no watch TV or listen to radio.

Mage wrote a topic about "faceless inividuals"

Just for the record, that's not me.


Sorry, my mistake. It was Thoad the Toad. He has the same armatar as you so I assumed... apologies.

anyway my hands are cold and we will touch on the drugs industry also when I have warmed up. Its pretty cold here in bonnie Scotland :S
AnaLoGMunKy
offline
AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Anyone interested... look at the series century of the self. This is a part called "The Engineering of Consent"... if you dont care then please use 10 mins on this youtube vid. These are important to understand where I am coming from when I talk about manipulation being unfair.

AnaLoGMunKy
offline
AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

Sorry I meant to post part 4 not part 3 although part 3 is good too.

Watch Part 4

DoctorHouseNCIS
offline
DoctorHouseNCIS
304 posts
Nomad

As long as Canadians aren't running it

Einfach
offline
Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

And yes, I am being manipulated, even with my awareness of it I am faaar from immune, and its for this reason I cannot believe it fair when you and others say things like "you have a choice to buy the products" etc. Some things run deeper than our concious. If you manipulate those you can literally control a person. I know this for a fact and its not always bad or malevolent. However what Bernard Frued did to make women smoke is a good example of greedy manipulation that was bad for the masses. That particular idea has so much more depth to which I would like to go into on this thread.


What is a proposed solution to this &quotroblem" you say, that people cannot make choices for themselves - that they are too easily convinced by a small, controlling minority.

Is your proposed solution to say that because they are obviously too easily manipulated, it is better to make decisions for them rather than to let them decide what they see as the best thing for their own lives?

If someone chooses something, do they do it because - why? They pursue - well - what they pursue. I guess the easiest thing to call it is happiness (Pleasure is too often associated with a physical feeling and hedonism). People perform even "unselfish" actions for their own happiness. Thus, if someone chooses to buy from a dishonest company, why are they doing so? It is for their happiness - they believe the product will make them happy. Tell me why should you interfere with one who pursues their own happiness.
NoNameC68
offline
NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

I suggest everyone reads The 48 Laws of Power. I would go ahead and get the actual book as I'm unsure if the online ones cover a bunch of short stories written on the sides of the page.

Manipulation, power, control, all of these things are often shed in a negative light, and in many cases this is rightfully so. However, manipulation is a constant that one can not fully overcome.

Every day, manipulation plays a role in relationships. Men and women seduce each other, more often putting a false or exaggerated front up to get what they want. Many cultures, for different reasons, allow the parents to find soul mates for their children. This often leaves the sly manipulative games behind. There are many couples who live happily together, both those who met through their parents, or met at a bar.

I am targeted by brands all the time. I end up buying stuff and sometimes I am disappointed. Soda is unhealthy and video games eat up my time. I've avoided all things Abercrombie throughout my life and I have always been very skeptical of social fads such as Twitter, which is pointless; Facebook, which can be used well or abused easy; and alcohol, because half the teenage life is about having a drink with friends.

Manipulation is unavoidable and to limit the ability to manipulate merely gives the enforcer undeserved power. Sometimes it's not worth fighting manipulation, other times all you can do is educate others to see what is truly going on.

AnaLoGMunKy
offline
AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

What is a proposed solution to this &quotroblem" you say, that people cannot make choices for themselves - that they are too easily convinced by a small, controlling minority.

Is your proposed solution to say that because they are obviously too easily manipulated, it is better to make decisions for them rather than to let them decide what they see as the best thing for their own lives?


Did you watch either part of the videos that I posted? They show that the government, afraid of Freud's idea of the primitive sub-concious, sought to control people with manipulation. Its pretty obvious that this is not working. So my solution is almost the opposite to what you assume from me... Im not sure how you arrived at your perception of me but I believe give people more power. Not politicians, people. i.e. a REAL democracy!

It is for their happiness - they believe the product will make them happy. Tell me why should you interfere with one who pursues their own happiness.


Eh! are you playing devil advocate or do you really believe that?
Its quite obviously NOT leading the western world to happiness and we spread such an image of "we are so well off and happy" that countries we have helped destroy look at us with envy and want our lifestyle.

Do you believe we should pursue our own selfish happiness regardless of others and regardless of the state we leave our world in?


This is kinda funny coming from AnaLoGMunKy, but I'll give my opinion.


???

First off, attacking the rich is an old tactic, unfortunately it still works


This is not about "the rich" its about certain rich people who play with the masses like an experiment. Are you happy that oil companies are raking in the profit whilst charging ever higher prices on petrol? Are you happy that food has become more expensive and the cheapest food is the worst for you yet food corporations dominate the market? Are you happy that large corporations supress greener tech so they continue to profit from "the next model" of car etc...

Thats the rich I dislike.

I suggest everyone reads The 48 Laws of Power


I will look for that. I also agree about manipulation not always being a force for evil and that we need to become much more aware of the world we inhabit.


I tend to find that those of our race who have not looked into (oooh careful now!) Conspiracy videos (even if you dont believe them), informative documovies or read books that seek to teach us about our world generally are ignorant of the true nature of the world we live in. We all know its not nice but at some point some of us wake up and shudder with utter fear and revulsion at how crazy and chaotic the world really is.
Its the whole "humans wouldn't do that, blow up their own buildings just to start a war so they can gain more power and influence... its not possible"
Yes... I know... Im not being nice :P
Einfach
offline
Einfach
1,448 posts
Nomad

Do you believe we should pursue our own selfish happiness regardless of others and regardless of the state we leave our world in?


I want you to give me an example of an action someone would do (that is not completely idiotic) that does not further their own "happiness."
AnaLoGMunKy
offline
AnaLoGMunKy
1,573 posts
Blacksmith

I want you to give me an example of an action someone would do (that is not completely idiotic) that does not further their own "happiness."


Hypothetical example that happens all over the world. Woman buys beauty product that she thinks will improve her looks but she ends up orange.
"but it said real looking tan on the box!"

cmon gimmie a challenge! Giving you an example of how a consumerist marketplace can cause illusions of supposed happiness is quite apparent and all around us at almost all times. Every darn advert practically promises untold happiness with smiling beauty's, laughing children, happy family's and confident large endowed car owners who sit in their individual yet same as the rest car feeling good about life because you too could have zoom zoom with papa and nicole?!?

I looked on the back of a packet of supermarkets own brand cornflakes today and it shows an image of a happy family. It almost doesnt matter what the text is, the idea they wish to convey is clear... good for you and your family. I dont need advertising people to tell me what food is good and in fact I dont want them to because with the same foul swipe of their hand they will put happy funny bouncy YAY! images on sweets so kids perk up when they see them or put a catchy tune to crap filled pop tarts so I think of them, sing it, see it, get good feeling.

If you work in marketing etc... kill yourself - thanks bill


How can people be responsible for their own actions if they dont know about this and actively try to "debunk" the "conspiracy" that is us against "them" because it make us/you feel uncomfortable. I make this assumption because to ask me such a question your either toying with me or fit snugly into the "ignorant to the real ills of the world" bunch. Find it offensive if you wanna, it is, once again, not a picture of roses I present myself as but I wanna see... Can you use your brain? show me!

*rant* :P
Showing 1-15 of 41