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valkery
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valkery
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Nomad

My friend and I got into a conversation the other day, and he left me with the statement that Religion blinds people. He never explained what that meant, but I still want to know; based on your guys experiences, does Religion blind? And if so, how does it blind? Does it blind you from accepting all reality, or just another reality that you don't want to face?

Please try to be insightful.

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MageGrayWolf
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They are messed up and follow the religeon not how youre meant to. Similar to extremism.


Who are you or anyone to make such a determination? Even the extremists can be justified by there respective holy text. I see no reason to make this claim that they are doing it wrong and your doing it right.

Relative moral standrds for some things then.


It's all subjective.

that's because people were not accepting the fact of other religeons, and instead of doing what you should(by religeon), which is send missionarys to to talk to people about god. Justifying war with religeon is wrong. it is not what you are meant to do.


Considering religions make the claim of the the one and only truth how is it a requirement to accept other beliefs? Actively going out and trying to convert others to your beliefs isn't really accepting either. As for war again who are you or anyone to make this assessment?

Well, I think you have to confess that you did some thing wrong and then you have the right to feel not guilty.


Bull! If you do something that is against your moral codes you have full right to feel guilty about doing it.

But tou have to understand that what did was wrong. the guilt can make you crazy some times. I can tell you are real life story about that. = proof


Coming to terms with such feelings is not the same as being absolved of them.

Dude, have you read the whole of that post? I said I don't ******* agree!!!!!!


Yes I read your entire post. I would making a point by point break down of the list.
manny6574
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manny6574
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Nomad

Even the extremists can be justified by there respective holy text.


well, if he commits a sin, then its not. For example, he goes and kills some people. that is a sin.

Do you know the bible? if not then don't say they can be justified by it. if yes then can you give me a game where some crime was justified by the bible. BTW I'm catholic.

Bull! If you do something that is against your moral codes you have full right to feel guilty about doing it.


well, would you want to feel guilty? cos I don't think I would.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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well, if he commits a sin, then its not. For example, he goes and kills some people. that is a sin.


There are plenty of examples in the Bible where it gives reasons to kill, in some cases how to go about it as well. It's all a matter of how you interpret the text. Just like how you interpret the stories in Genesis as being metaphorical, other interpret them as being literal. Those people interpreting the Bible to mean you should hate gays and others who have killed in Gods name, they prayed and listened to that little voice in there heads just like how you likely do to get your interpretation of the Bible. So I don't see how you can say they are wrong and your right.

Do you know the bible? if not then don't say they can be justified by it. if yes then can you give me a game where some crime was justified by the bible. BTW I'm catholic.


Which version do you prefer? When you say game do you mean example? There are plenty of examples of people justifying there actions because of the Bible, but I get the impression you will just right them all off. Just as you would likely right off examples of cruelty and violence committed in the Bible by God directly or through his people.

well, would you want to feel guilty? cos I don't think I would.


Of course I wouldn't, though I wouldn't want to have to do something that goes against my morals either. But if I did I would have to live with that.
manny6574
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manny6574
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a game


WTF was I thinking about then?? lol

There are plenty of examples in the Bible where it gives reasons to kill


more precisely?

just like how you likely do to get your interpretation of the Bible.


I am not the best best christian and pray quite rarely. I got my interperetation from my dad(who studied theology) and my own reasonings.

There are plenty of examples of people justifying there actions because of the Bible


more precisely, again?

It's all a matter of how you interpret the text. Just like how you interpret the stories in Genesis as being metaphorical, other interpret them as being literal.


well, those who think it as literal have been proved wrong.
MageGrayWolf
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more precisely?


Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Ezekiel 9:6
Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Ezekiel 23:25
And I will set my jealousy against thee, and they shall deal furiously with thee: they shall take away thy nose and thine ears; and thy remnant shall fall by the sword: they shall take thy sons and thy daughters; and thy residue shall be devoured by the fire.

Joshua 6:21
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ***, with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 8:21
And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai.

Joshua 10:28
And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Judges 1:4
And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.

Exodus 21:17
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 22:18
Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. (well no need to bold this)

Exodus 22:20
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. (Not to mention for sacrificing)

Exodus 31:15
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 32:27-28
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.
And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Leviticus 20:10-13
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:15-16
And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Just to name a few. I await your bs apologetics response of how these aren't literal, taken out of context, and/or not what God wanted.

I am not the best best christian and pray quite rarely. I got my interperetation from my dad(who studied theology) and my own reasonings.


Have you even read the Bible for yourself? If not, go do it.

more precisely, again?


Killing in the Crusades, holding slaves, repression of gay rights, homophobia, burning people alive, genital mutilation, repression of contraceptives, ...it's been a long day so sorry for not being even more specific. If anyone else would like to answer this in more depth please go ahead. Oh yeah don't bother with the "well those are extremists" argument manny, it fails.

well, those who think it as literal have been proved wrong.


Yep which is why I said with some religion requires belief in disproven claims.
Considering there is no clear line between what is metaphor and what is suppose to be taken literally it's understandable why some would take such things like a global flood literally while others do not. Also if there is not clear line then God could just as easily be just a metaphor as well.
manny6574
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manny6574
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Nomad

Have you even read the Bible for yourself?


yes, but not entireley(yet), i'm currently at isaiah.

Leviticus 20:10-13
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:15-16
And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 20:27
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.


That is just laws of the jews, death sentence kind of thing. currently the church does not do that.

how these aren't literal, taken out of context, and/or not what God wanted.


they are literal, not taken out of context and very good quotes.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.


witches and the like are like priests but of the devil.

Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Ezekiel 9:6
Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.


Punishment. god doesn't just let everything go.

Joshua 6:21
And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ***, with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 8:21
And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai.

Joshua 10:28
And that day Joshua took Makkedah, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and the king thereof he utterly destroyed, them, and all the souls that were therein; he let none remain: and he did to the king of Makkedah as he did unto the king of Jericho.

Judges 1:4
And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.


War for god was then good, Jesus came and said to convert people instead of killing them. when Jesus came he said don't kill people, but talk peacfully and convert them.

holding slaves


the church says that is wrong,

Killing in the Crusades


'converting' in the most un-christian way.

burning people alive


I don't think they did that where I come from. but that was a punishment in medieval times. not today.

Considering there is no clear line between what is metaphor and what is suppose to be taken literally it's understandable why some would take such things like a global flood literally while others do not. Also if there is not clear line then God could just as easily be just a metaphor as well.


well, things that seem unprobable(and you have to take into account various historical sources)are most likeley metaphorical. the evidence can roughly show you if its metaphorical or literal.

genital mutilation


wrong. not nowadays.

many of your examples are from the distant past, things have changed from then. try make your examples from the gospel and the new testament.
valkery
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valkery
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Nomad

[quote]genital mutilation
[/quote]
wrong. not nowadays.

I do believe that manny, you are incorrect in that people do not perform genital mutilation. Have you ever heard of circumcision?
manny6574
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manny6574
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Nomad

Yes, not in christianity. Judaism

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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That is just laws of the jews, death sentence kind of thing. currently the church does not do that.


So basically your saying disregard parts of the Bible. Last I checked that's not how it was suppose to work.

they are literal, not taken out of context and very good quotes.


Then the Bible and your God condones killing and people could justify such actions by the Bible.

witches and the like are like priests but of the devil.


And that justifies killing them?

Punishment. god doesn't just let everything go.


Here you are justifying killing in the Bible because it was done in Gods name.

War for god was then good, Jesus came and said to convert people instead of killing them. when Jesus came he said don't kill people, but talk peacfully and convert them.


war and killing was good then but not now? What a load of crap. Again NT doesn't override old.

the church says that is wrong,


Then the church is going against it's own scripture. Oh, and don't give me that tripe about how slavery in the Bible was different.

'converting' in the most un-christian way.


Considering you just said war and killing was a good things only a few quotes ago, it would seem to be very christian like.

I don't think they did that where I come from. but that was a punishment in medieval times. not today.


That's because by our current standards it's immoral, but the point is it is an action people did that they justified through the Bible.

well, things that seem unprobable(and you have to take into account various historical sources)are most likeley metaphorical. the evidence can roughly show you if its metaphorical or literal.


So by that logic I can claim God is nothing more than a metaphor.

wrong. not nowadays.


People are still circumcised and there are religious people who even claim it can help prevent AIDS.

many of your examples are from the distant past, things have changed from then. try make your examples from the gospel and the new testament.


One it doesn't matter when some of my examples happened they were still things that were done and justified by the Bible. secondly I was pulling from things that actually have happened not stories in your book. But if you mean rules in the new testament, the NT doesn't over ride the old testament, the OT still applies. Finally slavery, repression of gay rights, and homophobia can be justified by the NT. Theft, body mutilation, war, and abandoning your family could also be justified by the NT depending on how you want to interpret the text.

Any your response was about what I expected. Your just dismissing or making excuses of the cruelty in the Bible. It's very clear your just "running on automatic".
MageGrayWolf
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Yes, not in christianity. Judaism


The Pope, the head of your religion condones it.
Hypermnestra
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Hypermnestra
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Nomad

Objectively? I think that religion can blind people, if they let it. I mean, of course you've got radicals and extremists, the people who resort to violence in the name of religion(and no, I'm not just talking about Muslims, there are Christian terrorists as well), you've got the devout people who push their religion and their ideals onto everyone else, etc. etc. But we have to remember that there are normal theists out there. We also have to remember that no matter how much of a critical thinker we may believe ourselves to be, I'm willing to bet that about 90% of all atheists were raised that way, and the same thing goes for Christians, or hey, any followers of any religion. Nowadays there is less converting going on than there is simply passing your religious beliefs on to your children. So we have to cut Christians some slack; it's what their parents told them from a very young age. The same thing happened when we believed our parents when they told us about the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus, or any number of myths told to amuse children. It's almost the exact same thing with religion; we tend to believe our parents when they tell us stuff, even ridiculous stuff, because we trust them.
Now that I've covered the whole &quotarents" thing, we're moving on to Phase Two. So now we've realized that these Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc. are just believing what their parents have told them, and this time, they have a book to back them up. So, regardless of their religion, I think that theists can be rational, intelligent, and capable of critical thinking if they do not let their religion control them. As long as you're not extremist, devout, or otherwise letting your religion run your life, you can be perfectly fine. As for those? Well, yes, you would be blind. And I'm not saying that religious people don't sometimes look away from evidence concerning their religion, but as long as their job has nothing to do with their religion, I don't see why that would be too much of a problem.
Last but not least, Phase Three. Yes, religion is horrible. Yes, religion as a whole has been responsible for some terrible atrocities. Yes, almost all religions condone the killing of people for several reasons(homosexuality, other beliefs, etc), and yes, we would be better off without religion. But as for the little guy, the individual believer? As long as he isn't an extremist, or a devout, or something of that manner, then no, religion has not blinded him.

MageGrayWolf
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So we have to cut Christians some slack; it's what their parents told them from a very young age. The same thing happened when we believed our parents when they told us about the Easter Bunny, or Santa Claus, or any number of myths told to amuse children. It's almost the exact same thing with religion; we tend to believe our parents when they tell us stuff, even ridiculous stuff, because we trust them.


Many people grow out of beliefs of the Easter Bunny or Santa because they weren't cut slack, they had these beliefs challenged. This got them questioning these characters and eventually their parents came clean. With religion people are not coming clean when questions arise but rather are further reinforced and taught how to excuse or ignore such questions. Because of this I don't see how cutting them slack is doing any favors. Though don't get me wrong that doesn't mean we can't understand why they are believing such things.

As long as he isn't an extremist, or a devout, or something of that manner, then no, religion has not blinded him.


I again have to disagree. Sure they might not be going around committing violet acts, but they are also not really giving there religious belief any rational or critical thought, but rather blindly following along. Which is why I said in my first post "if someone wasn't letting religion blind them, they wouldn't be religious".
manny6574
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manny6574
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Nomad

[quote]That is just laws of the jews, death sentence kind of thing. currently the church does not do that.


So basically your saying disregard parts of the Bible. Last I checked that's not how it was suppose to work.[/quote]

no, let me get a quote.. (I really wish I had the bible in english)..

John 8:3-11
The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, âTeacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?â They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, âLet any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.â Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. Jesus straightened up and asked her, âWoman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?â

âNo one, sir,â she said.

âThen neither do I condemn you,â Jesus declared. âGo now and leave your life of sin.â

Jesus said to forgive people and give them another chance. it is not that I disregard part of the bible.
MageGrayWolf
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Matthew 5:17 (NIV)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Old Testament is still valid and not over ruled by Jesus.

manny6574
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manny6574
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Nomad

yes, but he did teach to forgive anyway

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