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314d1
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314d1
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Nomad

To start out the post with something vague to allow for more wide away, were to the souls of none human animals go, if they were to exist? Heaven and hell are apparently only for humans do the the "original sin", so are animals who did not participate doomed to the same fate?

If animals do not have souls, then were does there personality come from? Going back to the example of dogs, some are energetic, some are calm, and actually pretty much as different as humans. This would of course, make since that there is no such thing as souls, but not if there is.

Then, if beasts go straight to paradise, then why does the god not extend the same kindness to humans?

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Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
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Farmer

the answer is simple

I don't know... and neither does anyone that will answer you.


every answer you get is and will be speculation. Is our concept of a soul accurate? is there such a thing? are humans the only ones that have them if they do in fact exist? If there is in fact an afterlife, are heaven and hell the only two options? Some claim there is a &quotaradise" that is separate of the two. Some claim there is a purgatory.


I think humans are a little more intelligent than animals of any kind... although i doubt that statement sometimes... I can't say this with 100% certainty but i believe that animals run off of instinct and do what comes natural.

Humans on the other hand surpass instinct. we are of higher thinking. If the thinking of... we're the ultimate lifeform here on earth and the rest is just here to make our existence possible... is correct then maybe we're truly like the matrix... or The SIMS... maybe we're just presented with options to see which path we take, and where we go once we reach the end of our path is decided based on the line segment between the beginning and the end... I would think an all powerful god would be able to trump his all knowing aspect and be able to present scenarios where individuals could truly change their fate..........

but all of that hinges on there being a God of any kind that influences our lives behind the scenes.

in short humans > animals mentally... we know better... we surpass the limitations of other creatures... etc

isn't speculation fun?

314d1
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314d1
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Nomad

every answer you get is and will be speculation. Is our concept of a soul accurate? is there such a thing? are humans the only ones that have them if they do in fact exist? If there is in fact an afterlife, are heaven and hell the only two options? Some claim there is a &quotaradise" that is separate of the two. Some claim there is a purgatory.


There isn't such thing, but you would think that your any theist holy book would be accurate on something so important as this?

I think humans are a little more intelligent than animals of any kind... although i doubt that statement sometimes... I can't say this with 100% certainty but i believe that animals run off of instinct and do what comes natural.


Humans are animals. There goes that theory.

but all of that hinges on there being a God of any kind that influences our lives behind the scenes.


If I wasn't clear, there is no god. I am stating a flaw in biblical logic, if your a deist or agnostic I can't really debate without knowing what your thinking.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Farmer

every answer you get is and will be speculation. Is our concept of a soul accurate? is there such a thing? are humans the only ones that have them if they do in fact exist? If there is in fact an afterlife, are heaven and hell the only two options? Some claim there is a &quotaradise" that is separate of the two. Some claim there is a purgatory.


many theists will assert that the soul does indeed exist with certainty. However you are still correct, no matter how certain someone may be on this it is still just speculation and assertion.

I can't say this with 100% certainty but i believe that animals run off of instinct and do what comes natural.


Like a humans a parrot uses most of it's brain for complex behavior. Of course it's not nearly as complex as a humans though. But what this means is like humans they don't just run on instinct.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/03-brai-diagram.gif
jonnypants23
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First of all , how would anyone know where the heck dogs will go when they die ? The Bible states if you are saved you will go to Heaven if not then sadly you will go to hell .

I wasn't clear, there is no god. I am stating a flaw in biblical logic, if your a deist or agnostic I can't really debate without knowing what your thinking.


W8 so whats the flaw your stating here ? Since the Bible doesn't say anything about what happens to animals when they die , then that means that God the one and only creator of man is not real ? What a joke -_-
Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
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Humans are animals. There goes that theory.


Let me reword my previous statement. if there is a God then there is no reason that one "animal" wasn't made superior to the others. and "animal" is just a title or category given out by humans. if there is a God then maybe we are his "Ultimate" creation, ultimate animal, and all other creations are to make our existence possible... by direct means or by influencing the other creations and keeping them in check.


a flaw in human logic, biblical logic, does not indicate that there is no God or deity in general. and the bible does not consist of every religious and/or "inspired" text ever written that has relevance to Judaism/Christianity. the bible as it is today only consists of what a few people thought the most important... or the most influential. the rest was possibly discarded or hidden away... now i don't think something that has to do with other organisms' salvation would interest those said people. Therefore, if it ever it existed it would not be in the canon that is the current bible.

now if the bible is viewed as a history book that shows the divinations of the supposed God to his people then I would see it as a Guide book to living life... (the whole learn from the past or be doomed to repeat it thing...)... and not a Guide book to the Universe. where animals go has no pertinence to us living our lives.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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First of all , how would anyone know where the heck dogs will go when they die ? The Bible states if you are saved you will go to Heaven if not then sadly you will go to hell .


Does that mean we have to get our pets "saved" or do they get a free ticket or not have a soul at all?

W8 so whats the flaw your stating here ? Since the Bible doesn't say anything about what happens to animals when they die , then that means that God the one and only creator of man is not real ? What a joke -_-


What he's getting at is if animals do have souls what rule applies to them getting into paradise. If they can get right in without needing to be saved like humans why can't this just be extended to humans? If they do not have souls and humans do then how does one explain animals expressing behavior that would otherwise be associated with the existence of a soul?
Ghgt99
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Ghgt99
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To Dog Heaven duh! Actually I don't know.

MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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and all other creations are to make our existence possible... by direct means or by influencing the other creations and keeping them in check.


There are plenty of "creations" that do nothing but destroy us rather then make it possible for us to exist.

the bible as it is today only consists of what a few people thought the most important... or the most influential.


It was also the stuff those few people considered the most believable. Of course if it's all suppose to be influenced by God I don't see how humans can pick and choose what does and does not go in, but I guess that's a topic for another debate.
Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
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Like a humans a parrot uses most of it's brain for complex behavior. Of course it's not nearly as complex as a humans though. But what this means is like humans they don't just run on instinct.


i couldn't really think this through well enough... i left some parts out b/c of this and also b/c i forgot completely... oopsies... now I'm going to try a little harder this time. Animals are capable of complex actions ,but are sometimes governed mostly by their instincts. Dolphins participate in intercourse for the fun of it... they CHOOSE to commit such actions. They communicate to to some extent via clicks and squeaks. They have a very high caliber mind (...if you could explain it in such a way)

all i'm saying is that we humans have transcended these animals in almost every way either through evolution or by some divine hand. if there is some facet that we aren't better at then the others compensate and greatly overshadow the credentials of the others... (we can't swim like a fish... so through the use of our brain we invent ways to do it) I would make the assumption that we are the ultimate being here on earth... possibly the only one able to comprehend and the difference between right and wrong... or good and evil.

I know that animals can be trained to respond to positive stimuli and be trained to avoid negative stimuli. I've never been any other type of organism...that i know of... so i haven't a clue as to how deep their depth of thought really is. Do parrots understand the words they hear and repeat or do they just associate those words with certain results? conditioning the animal so that it correctly uses certain words at certain times does not mean that it understands the language

I don't know if animals know the difference between the concepts of right and wrong... good/bad... etc. I'm not sure if animals act towards self preservation of themselves and their family unit or if they are privy to deeper thought than that. I know that some animals can sense emotion and will respond to those emotions... but perceiving happiness, anger, sadness, etc cannot, in my mind, be enough evidence to tell me that they know the difference in right and wrong...


now.......... i'm sure that before i post this there will already be the ever present "what is right and wrong?, who determines such things?, etc" located on this thread.... you learn the meaning of words and abstract concepts growing up... sometimes they definitions are relative and flexible. we all have a decent idea of what those concepts are...

>_> i see me having to fight over half of this post in the near actually instant future....
Sonatavarius
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There are plenty of "creations" that do nothing but destroy us rather then make it possible for us to exist.


the above wasn't posted prior to my last post... so if this results in a double post then i apologize.

if there is merit to what religion tells us... then humans were cast from God's grace... and sentenced to live out the rest of our race in an unmerciful world where we live procreate and die. these destroyers (bacteria, some insects, etc (amirite?)) are here as another route by which we are taken when it is "our" time to go.

It was also the stuff those few people considered the most believable. Of course if it's all suppose to be influenced by God I don't see how humans can pick and choose what does and does not go in, but I guess that's a topic for another debate.


the bible is a grouping of scrolls... maybe there were too many scrolls to realistically make into a book. what happens when some problem like this arises? i would think they would use what they thought the most pertinent to the parts of their faith they thought most significant. this would lead to a bias in what was added in and what was left out. what does or does not go in is easier to choose than what you make it out to be... its as simple as ... "this goes in the "in" pile.. and this goes in the "leave out" pile. When it comes down to the nitty gritty... all documents are very important... and the "decider" shouldn't have the right to make the decisions... but similar to the existence video you showed me... it doesn't matter... it happened.
Sonatavarius
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Sonatavarius
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>_> ... i feel bad about the potential triple post... but I have information for my case that i keep leaving out... so my apologies...

faults in a person's side of a theological argument are not indicators of whether their attempt to prove or disprove "God" isn't the correct argument... it simply means that they don't know. Them not knowing only proves they don't know...not that there is or isn't a deity.

it could be that christians are right in that there is a God but their image is scewed... and that the "inspired" texts have some merit to them but are not the 100% truth.

i had something else... but i forgot it... i hate it when that happens.. :'-(

...i'll be waiting for more posts... and inspiration before i reply again... no 4th post.

nickthepwn
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nickthepwn
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Well, my family doesn't know I'm an atheist so I still go to church (occasionally) on Sundays. A few weeks ago the pastor went over this very subject, and talked along these lines:

A dog does not go to heaven, because this is its heaven. It is already pure and well etc


Now, from my point of view, dogs just decompose. That's it.
manny6574
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manny6574
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Who cares where dogs go, I'm not a dog.

But on a more serious note, I have no idea. I have also no idea if animals have souls or not.

MageGrayWolf
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Animals are capable of complex actions ,but are sometimes governed mostly by their instincts.


So are humans, otherwise we wouldn't have situations like riots at sporting events. Our desire to procreate is also based on instinct.

I would make the assumption that we are the ultimate being here on earth.


I wouldn't take this brain of ours away and we are remarkably underwhelming creatures to say the least.

I know that animals can be trained to respond to positive stimuli and be trained to avoid negative stimuli.


Doesn't that pretty much describe learning right from wrong?

Do parrots understand the words they hear and repeat or do they just associate those words with certain results? conditioning the animal so that it correctly uses certain words at certain times does not mean that it understands the language


This is debatable. There have been tests done on African Greys indicating they are capable of understanding what they say, but no other type of parrot. Although tests like those have really only been done on African Greys and there are trainers who work with multiple breeds who claim the African Grey is no smarter then any other parrot. So this means either the African Greys that have been shown to be able to understand speech had a some difference in their brain, most if not all parrots have this ability, the tests were wrong about the Greys ability, or the trainers were wrong about other parrots abilities.

My own experience my birds seem to indicate they understand speech
though are capable of fully reproducing it. They have developed chirps that are clear yes or no responses.

these destroyers (bacteria, some insects, etc (amirite?)) are here as another route by which we are taken when it is "our" time to go.


Loving God? Vengeful God?... Unnecessarily cruel vengeful God.

There are so many other problematic implications in there that I won't get into.

the bible is a grouping of scrolls... maybe there were too many scrolls to realistically make into a book.


They could have fit them in, even if they had to separate it into two books instead of one.

what does or does not go in is easier to choose than what you make it out to be... its as simple as ... "this goes in the "in" pile.. and this goes in the "leave out" pile.


Yes it was that simple to do, we are talking about doing it to something that was supposedly inspired by the creator of the universe. Doesn't really sound like the kind of thing to pick and choose on.

Them not knowing only proves they don't know...not that there is or isn't a deity.


I agree there. This works both ways in the God of the gaps argument.

it could be that christians are right in that there is a God but their image is scewed... and that the "inspired" texts have some merit to them but are not the 100% truth.


Why would God allow such an important document to be so skewed?

A dog does not go to heaven, because this is its heaven. It is already pure and well etc


If they were able to I'm sure abused dogs would disagree.

Who cares where dogs go, I'm not a dog.


If all this God stuff is real I care.
Sonatavarius
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what if you view it as... we humans are possibly the only ones with the capacity to acknowledge that there may or may not be such a thing as a higher power that transcends anything we can fully comprehend. Granted... if we are the only ones who can acknowledge him and he does in fact exist then I would suggest that we are the only ones that can learn his "right" and "wrong" and therefore be the only ones he would subject to a judgement

Why would God allow such an important document to be so skewed?


i dunno... maybe something similar to "these inspired texts are my gift to you"... "you have free will"..."do with them what you will" and the humans of yesteryear took them, ran with them, and skewed them. ....and if my memory serves correct from what i've read and been told over the years... there was once no "bible", just scrolls people read from. maybe not everyone had the same scrolls... or there was a bias in which ones were copied and distributed. Its easier to mass produce and distribute one book then it is 2 or more. If we were truly given free will then I'm not so sure the God in question would have stopped it
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