Forums → WEPR → Theism and Atheism
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please
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And Kasic, did you forget several issues that are still buried within this topic regarding events that are deemed miracles, like healing from gangrena in Zeitun, preservation of flesh and blood for 1200+ years and issues in blood weighing in Lanciano, The complete testimony of Miracle of the Sun in Fatima, the heal of Gloria Polo from internal burns due to lightning strike, and more? While any and every issue isn't addressed to provide a plausible explanation, I can still claim them being miracles.
You must have a selective memory, I remeber discussing these things (Well not me, I was a silent observer then mostly) and it boiled down to, "Vesper: These miracles prove christianity is true" "Someone else: Other faiths have miracles also" "Vesper: Oh those miracles aren't true, even though they have just as much backing, but ours are, here's a link to a blog!" "Someone else: That's not a valid source" etc.
Heh. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sadist enjoys this new title.
which does not apply to God as we have already concluded.
No we haven't come to that conclusion. It was simply asserted as some lame defense for all illogical contradictions in your religion.
The question was when, not why.
My bad.
And about if we're not winning - it's normal to look that we're not. :P We know the end, and in the end we'll win, since God is with us.
No, you just believe it and it's unfortunate you can't tell the difference.
Loving the title change here. I think it was caused by a surprising lack of rapture today
Another answer: because communism, being based on materialism, defies God. So anyone who proclaims communism sins gravely, and can expect punishment. And the after-death destiny of those killed by the angel is beyond our scope of view, so they could say "Wow, there is God over there! Oh my they told me lies!" prior to getting killed, which is probably enough of a repentance o avoid Hell.
God made humans believe what they are brought up to believe. If god had killed whoever had made up communism he would have saved all those souls from being brainwashed. In fact almost anyone who does something bad has been brainwashed. Why should god sentence them to hell for that.
Interesting quote. The latter part seems to be wrong, since Adam and Eve (or Noah in case of Genesis be an allegory) perfectly knew that God exists, and that didn't make God nothing.
But still why doesn't god tell everyone he exists rather than just your branch of christianity? I mean you know and nothing bad has happened to you. In fact, as god must have showed himself in the past why can't he do it now? He apparently does all of these miracles which should be proof that he exists so why doesn't he do better ones?
He doesn't even now, it's just us who don't wish to acknowledge Him existing. Nevertheless, that quote from Hitchhiker is an example of human logic, which does not apply to God as we have already concluded.
But the bible was written by man so it must have used human logic to figure out what godf did and your religions only base is the bible.
He doesn't even now, it's just us who don't wish to acknowledge Him existing. Nevertheless, that quote from Hitchhiker is an example of human logic, which does not apply to God as we have already concluded.
That's what I hate about all that, you can debate all you want and in the end you get told that god cannot be understood by any logic anyway. How are we supposed to believe in something that any asylum lunatic could come up with? That can only be directly witnessed in incredibly rare events? That decides to contact only a few chosen ones and let the others believe what they want, yet punish them for not acknowledging him?
Phew... ok I'm done. For now. Sorry for that^^
If I'm right, then the growth vector of that society is towards increase of material goods while forgetting about personality, just because "everyone" is as good as "one or another", ignoring people as identities.
I do think it is possible to have a society in which everyone is equal and yet has different personalities than others. I don't see why sharing of ressources and goods inevitably has to lead to loss of personality. About careerism - are you sure the personality they have to develop (have to, mind you) is really a good thing? It isn't their own personality at the beginning, they have to pour themselves in the mould traced by their career, and they might either take profit from it (most often at the expense of others), or they can't take it and go nuts. I don't know if that is really what god wants.
But if I understood you right, you see your faith confirmed in the way actual communism failed and your system apparently still works?
Christianity STFU is going to be the next new title of this thread.
[quote] i didn't know i was competing in anything... do we gets ribbons for wiinning?
Pretty much what this whole thread has been is 3-4 people saying Christianity is right, then an Atheist comes in and asks why, the christian just says I know it's true or gives a link to a unvalid source such as a blog or personal website, and then the Atheist gives some counter evidence which is addressed by more personal testimants..and on and on it goes.[/quote]
i thought it started w/ some random person saying... I just found Jesus... and then lots of atheists jumped in saying... you have no jesus (among other things)... and then the others jumped in b/c it looked a lot like bullying. ...and then it turned into debate. and now we're here...
and I would like the STFU... you should thoroughly friend us... especially me >... b/c I like having new friends.
Isaiah, Jeremiah, David, Naphan, etc etc, many other persons knew God in person, this didn't make Him nothing. Still wrong.
That's not an argument, your just proving my point even more.
It did leak, after all that same link reported that this letter was read yearly on Christmas by some radio. And, given that you here don't believe, this info could be shunned like what's going in this topic.
The "leak" of the letter by the US soldier is not proof. It needs to be some kind of Russian government files that states that the mans where killed by an angle. Showing pictures, video footage or correct and precises information.
Can you please name me the ideals of a materialistic society? I name them as everyone having access to material goods, and no single material good is in possession of a single person. It's probable that I'm mistaken, in 1991 we weren't already studying communism and marxism in details. If I'm right, then the growth vector of that society is towards increase of material goods while forgetting about personality, just because "everyone" is as good as "one or another", ignoring people as identities. This led to stagnation in the third generation here, when finally people who were educated under communism appeared as rulers, and have found out that they are, too, not considered as personalities, but as "council members" at best, not taking their personal qualities. This in turn led to them either self-manifesting by ambitious projects, or by eliminating opposition, or both. This led to loss of power in 1991.
Again, the Soviet Union was NEVER communist. Russia's education system can tell you whatever it wants, but the truth of the matter is communism never existed in a true sense. The Soviet Union supressed the masses. To argue a lack of personal identity is reidiculous. In a true communist society this would never happen.
This actually allowed people to not lose their beliefs either in any society ideal, or in God, and this belief seems to be enough for God to decide helping that kid we're arguing about for several last pages
I can't even dignify this with a response. America did not invent democracy, they weren't even the first nation to embrace it.
Again, the Soviet Union was NEVER communist. Russia's education system can tell you whatever it wants, but the truth of the matter is communism never existed in a true sense. The Soviet Union supressed the masses. To argue a lack of personal identity is reidiculous. In a true communist society this would never happen.Probably you're right, but since there's no "true Communism" available in the world, we don't know what will happen if there will be one. Actually those "commies" were also punished for persecutiong the religious, and Christians in particular.
It needs to be some kind of Russian government files that states that the mans where killed by an angle.I expect none will be there, KIA is a KIA, so what? And Russian, huh? IIRC Soviet Union wasn't interfering in there, or at least wished to cover the interference, so the closest documents you could get is North-Korean. But as you can see, the corpses fell into American hands, so no account from the opposite side is available. They just buried them, that's all. So the proof you request is plain impossible.
and I would like the STFU... you should thoroughly friend us... especially me >...hehe, nice reading of an acronym. Wish I would be able to do the same.
Vesper: Oh those miracles aren't true, even though they have just as much backingQuote me on this, and quote the post I replied to. They only say "There are miracles in other religions" and they so far provided only one source of a statue that could be fed milk. I followed that link and found no backing by scientifical investigation. I have provided info about at least Lanciano's miracle which IS backed by scientifical investigation that fails to explain several issues about the flesh and blood in question. Do reread this and revise this statement.
No we haven't come to that conclusion. It was simply asserted as some lame defense for all illogical contradictions in your religion.You haven't participated in that dialogue. Read first 40 pages of me and Einfach discussing about logic, determinism and God, then come back, if you have any arguments other than those given and answered.
I have provided info about at least Lanciano's miracle which IS backed by scientifical investigation that fails to explain several issues about the flesh and blood in question. Do reread this and revise this statement.
What the hell was there to test? It was just a completely unsubstantiated claim! You keep drudging this crap up like you made a point with all this subjective hearsay. You haven't!
If you sir have truly found a magical hobo... (and not the fake magic)... then I will follow that man to the ends of the earth and back. b/c magical balloon mamminimals are awesome
i picture'd him as a magical hobo clown for some reason. don't judge me. (oopsies on the double)
What the hell was there to test?Blood weighing test, at the very least.
FIFY.No thanks.
the problem with personal testaments is, you can get them from anyone.Agreed here. But if such an evidence is backed by some corresponding event, like healing of Gloria Polo or say healing at Zeitun, this evidence should be approached with more trust. It is said "Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves" Jn 14:11. So if someone does deeds of what Jesus did, and provides evidence of meeting God, the one could be believed.
Blood weighing test, at the very least.
I don't think you get it...At the very most, you can prove that it's normal blood. Which, if you think about, isn't really all that uncommon or special. Whoopdiedo.
It's possible I have not provided the weighing issue info. Here:
Since 1574, various ecclesiastical investigations of varying degrees of detail have been conducted upon the miracle. The first appears to consist of a weighing, in which each different globule though varying in size, all each weigh the same and always produced the same weight no matter what the amount of these globules was.Citation is available at Lanciano in hard copy form. Other sites I have found quoting this are religious, stating the following:
When the local archbishop later weighed the pellets, it was discovered that one nugget weighed the same as all five together, two as much as any three, and the smallest as much as the largest. In February of 1574, another test was done on the miraculous blood pellets. Again, any one of the pellets weighed alone equaled the weight of all five pellets together.From here
And I have found the weight of them being 15.75g reported on another of the sites.
I have found another Eucharistic miracle worth of mentioning here, the miracle of Santarem, Portugal (same source), however having less degree of scientific proof. Either way, this debate seems to help me know more about the deeds of God...
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