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zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

The question is simple. Should Israel exist. I know that this subject is very controversial so I am setting some "ground rules."
1. Because Israel is so tied into Judaism, NO ANTI-SEMETIC COMMENTS
2. Please back up your reasoning with facts
3. Respect other's opinions. I cannot tell you how many times I have been on CNN and seen people flinging mud at each other. BE RESPECTFUL!

I am looking forward to seeing the posts and logic behind the opinions.

For the record, I think it should exist.

  • 339 Replies
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

So i'm guessing what you mean is that Egypt needs to stop exporting weapons to Hamas?


What I mean is that Egypt either has to immediately close the border, which will probably not happen, or they have to keep a 24/7 guard to check all ingoing and outgoing cars, bags, etc. Also, they need to call in European supervisors, or UN Peacekeepers.
Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
1,482 posts
Shepherd

What I mean is that Egypt either has to immediately close the border,


!?
There are 5 Million Palestinian Refugees.
No offense to Israel, but clearly the stats prove that the country is no longer habitable for Palestinians. Closing the border would just cause people to slam at the gates.

Also, they need to call in European supervisors, or UN Peacekeepers.


What exactly do supervisors do? I know UN Peacekeepers just sit around and... well, keep the peace. But what would these people do in Egypt? Nobody's shooting rockets from Egyptian borders.
grimml
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grimml
879 posts
Nomad

That's actually another good point. The Western world has this obsession with Israel. I'd bet 5$ the average Western person heard a lot about Israel but will not be able to name 4 different conflicts going on today. Funny considering the size of the Israeli-Arab conflict...


You're right. Especially the left winged (parties) are obsessed with Israel. Many who call themselves anti-Zionists are in fact anti-Semits. For an example just look at the German party "Die Linke". A few days ago a study was released that shows that anti-Semitism is rising in this (left winged) party.

So i'm guessing what you mean is that Egypt needs to stop exporting weapons to Hamas? If that is the case, then I think it would be better to have some sort of diplomatic arbitration agreements with Egypt, not an invasion of the Gaza Strip.


But what if the Egypts won't cooperate?
Paarfam
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Paarfam
1,558 posts
Nomad

But what if the Egypts won't cooperate?

Then the idea obviously won't work now will it?
Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
1,482 posts
Shepherd

Oh, I forgot to point this out, but, to Zakyman, at the end of your article, it even says that since Saturday 600 Palestinians have left. [Just to reinforce my idea that closing the border only traps the Palestinians and makes them even more pro-Hamas]

But what if the Egypts won't cooperate?


It depends on what the terms are.
And... Israel has friends, we all know that.
Also, if you look at Egypt's history, they work well with bribes. Back in the Cold War Era, they had a sweet ride first getting USSR support and then going all 'Omg we love democracy' and getting USA support.

Still, I suppose it depends on what the terms are. Closing the border sounds bad for both sides as it is so I doubt that would happen.
GoblinD
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GoblinD
322 posts
Nomad


The Airstrike looks pretty decent for now on but this part is a little confusing. Are UN Hospital Windows normally filled with Palestinian terrorists?

In 2008 that was so very often the case. In fact, this scenario I just came up with actually has a good chance of being true. I know a lot of Israeli soldiers who fought there. Yes, I can tell you that almost every important place that will look bad for Israel if they bomb it had snipers, rocket launchers or command posts on it.
I think its disgraceful for medias such as BBC for hiding this part from the international public.
The IDF did however often send posters in Arabic from planes into areas about to be bombed telling the locals to run away. Unfortunately if they would try to ran away then Hamas men could just have shot their legs, as I've mentioned before. This was done mostly on places like smuggling tunnels or weapon stashes, not in the kind of scenario I mentioned.


Also, their army hasn't always gone airstrike happy. The Gaza invasion in 2008 was rather nasty. I'd rather have Israel regulate arms imports than to cause a humanitarian crisis, and this one, I'm sure, as a whole, did not look much like the UN Hospital scenario you're giving here, seeing as Israel was internationally asked to start a ceasefire.

Most of the international community has large interests in demanding a seize fire. And it involves mostly the democratic public opinion but that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. It means they were forced to act that way. If the international governments would really be about making things right then they would interfere in places like Kurdistan or better, Darfur. I think the contradiction in their reaction to the events in Syria and Libya today is another good example.
But it's a good point you brought up here. For all the leftists who appose the Israeli Blockade on Gaza - this will happen again if Hamas could arm itself freely. Its already close to happening again after advanced Russian and Chinese missiles where found on Hamas recently.


Also, I'm not sure about Jews in Israel, but from what I've heard about Jewish communities, they're rather seclusive. So It's not like Palestinians can easily merge into their society, and, if all of the Palestinians are poor, they probably feel suppressed or exploited, and even further alienated due to bad history and maybe even strong religious upbringing. All of this put together sounds as if the only real option they have is to support Hamas over Israel, since they can't see Israel as friends.
I know that's not 100% true but for the majority of Palestinians I'm going to assume it is, based on the polls and facts given.

I didn't quite get this. Are you talking about Israeli Arabs or Gazans? The two communities may consider themselves Palestinians but there are huge differences between the two, so don't confuse the two.
Just to clarify some things: Israel has a 20% Arab minority with Israeli citizenship. Gaza and the West bank are places with Palestinians outside the green line, meaning they have not been annexed by Israel but saved for a future Palestinian state instead. Because they where not annexed, Palestinians living there do not have Israeli citizenship.
GoblinD
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GoblinD
322 posts
Nomad

Don't have time to read the rest but Id want to answer this one:


So i'm guessing what you mean is that Egypt needs to stop exporting weapons to Hamas? If that is the case, then I think it would be better to have some sort of diplomatic arbitration agreements with Egypt, not an invasion of the Gaza Strip.

Egypt also has a blockade on Gaza but the Egyptian rule in the blockade started to end a few days ago when they started opening their boarder with Gaza. Due to the Revolution ofc.
Anyway, back then Egypt actively helped stop the arment of Hamas and was therefore a target for Hamas and other radical Islamists (as well as Jordan).
Egypt's part in the blockade was pretty much hidden from the international public in order to focus more anger on Israel (again, mostly by Medias such as BBC).
sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

**** I hate it when I go away for the day and I have to remove some epic fail from a thread, oh well, it is the life I have chosen

@zakyman and armed blade, shut the hell up now, no one care about your arguments you posting off topic, take it somewhere else

now as for your hospital situation I guess most Israelis would take secret option umber four and air strike the entire area regardless of the civilian casualties

now, when you say that Hamas are anti Semitic, you really don't make very much sense, for you see little to no Israelis are Semitic however all Palestinians are, so really it is the Israelis who are anti Semitic

and what is your problem with the BBC?! its internationally renowned as one of the best impartial news agencies in the world, do your news stations ever talk about atrocities against Palestinians? I doubt it, however the BBC does, and if you believe it or not it reports ion atrocities against Israelis, i don't know what your problem is but its unjustified


no this is the last time i am going to ask this, none of you seem to want to answer this as it is in fact completely undefendable

now for the sake of this point lets assume that all you say is true, that Israel is a great democracy that loves the Arabs and wants to be their friends, a country that would never intentionally harm or kill civilians, and its all those nasty Hamas types faults

how do any of you justify the humanitarian atrocity, the disgusting monstrosity, the worst war crime since the holocaust, the segregation wall, any country that would commission such a work of horrific oppression clearly has no interest in freedom, in peace, in an end to war and racism, it clearly has no interest in openness or healing, if it wasn't for this barbaric act of violence against all freedom i could almost believe that Israel really wasn't a disgusting cesspool of racism arrogance repression oppression and barbaric violence

GoblinD
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GoblinD
322 posts
Nomad


now as for your hospital situation I guess most Israelis would take secret option umber four and air strike the entire area regardless of the civilian casualties

That's baseless. Why would anyone do that?
1. We are human beings, not demons from hell.
2. No strategic advantage in that.
3. We are not demons from hell.

For the semitic thing. Its a long disscution about the dictionary meaning of it. Its about Europeans making the name when they still hated Arabs and Jews together. Whatever, to spare some misunderstandings I will say racist anti Jewish propaganda. It even includes some classic historical Nazi crap.

For media, I can give you an example for what I mean about BBC but It's late so I'll save it for some other time. Maybe tomorrow, but it would turn into a long disscution so I warn you this will go offtopic.
About Israel's media. Thats bull****. We have leftist medias just like everyone else. We even have the completely koko leftist medias.
But their not the only ones broadcasting Palestinian stuff. Myself I get informed from a lot of sources and I can tell you this: no major media in Israel is hiding anything about the Palestinians. Don't believe me? Google the websites and get informed daily.

As for the undefended question of yours. I thought it was meant specifically for someone but I wouldn't mined answering. But again, this can easily go down to a long disscution so I'd rather we stay away from that for now. Just so we don't have to post about 10 topics in the same time. The wall occupation points you brought up is included here.


the disgusting monstrosity, the worst war crime since the holocaust,

Hold you're horses. Yes there were some crimes going on in the Arab-Israeli conflict by Israelis but its inevitable in wars. Instead, I suggest you look at how the government reacted to them - apologies for them, put criminals to trail, take actions to prevent it from happening again, condemning them.
And really the "disgusting monstrosity, the worst war crime since the holocaust" is completely out of proportions. If you want to see worst stuff look into African conflicts today and may I recommend Darfur.

For racism in Israel: Lots of steps are done to prevent racism and its actually low. I'm an Israeli that traveled all over my small country lots of times, I know what I'm saying.

All that 'Barbaric' and 'disgusting' talking doesn't help no one and I find that offensive.
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

@zakyman and armed blade, shut the hell up now, no one care about your arguments you posting off topic, take it somewhere else


Actually we both made our points and THEN re-continued the discussion. Please read the entire argument, and then pass judgement. I did that once (not read an entire thing) and looked like an ***. Please don't look like one of those. Anyways...

now as for your hospital situation I guess most Israelis would take secret option umber four and air strike the entire area regardless of the civilian casualties


That's just stupid. It has been sufficiently proven that killing civilians is not IDF military policy. It is (unfortunately) to knock down homes, but killing civilians is murder, and Israel actually prosecutes their soldiers (unlike Hamas).

how do any of you justify the humanitarian atrocity, the disgusting monstrosity, the worst war crime since the holocaust, the segregation wall, any country that would commission such a work of horrific oppression clearly has no interest in freedom, in peace, in an end to war and racism, it clearly has no interest in openness or healing, if it wasn't for this barbaric act of violence against all freedom i could almost believe that Israel really wasn't a disgusting cesspool of racism arrogance repression oppression and barbaric violence


Comparing the Israeli occupation of the GS to the Holocaust is plain idiotic. There is no way anyone can draw parallels to that horrific tragedy. Like Goblin said, look at Darfur, then back at Israel. And how do you compare the "humanitarian atrocity" of Hamas launching rockets at civilians, and then the International community not even saying anything.
You say that Israel has had no interest in peace. I recommend looking up the Oslo Accords and Yitzhak Rabin. You have always told others to do research before they post. Now it is your turn to do some.
sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

did you guys even read the post you just quoted! i am not such a complete moron i would compare the holocaust to opertaion cast lead, the segreagtion wall!

THE SEGREGATION WALL! do you know what that is!? ive brought it upo enough times and its been ignored, read my post again, i was talking about the bloomin segraegtion wall! adress the point! its been brought up enough!!

as you can tell this is starting to annoy me as your basically calling me a moron because of something i didnt say, a comparison i didnt make, THE SEGREGATION WALL!

as for the BBC please post a link or video, i watch their news every day and can say that in all matter apart form british politics they are completely impartial, as for your media i am talking about television news, post alink to a report on amain channel talking about an Israeli crime

@zakyman i did read your whole argument, all i was saying was that it isnt needed here, then again nor is this sub argument so lets just leave it now

sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

Comparing the Israeli occupation of the GS to the Holocaust is plain idiotic.


yes it would be however i have not done that, i tell you what would be idiotic, not reading a post properly, and then calling me idiotic for something i didnt say! here is my origional post:

how do any of you justify the humanitarian atrocity, the disgusting monstrosity, the worst war crime since the holocaust, the segregation wall, any country that would commission such a work of horrific oppression clearly has no interest in freedom, in peace, in an end to war and racism, it clearly has no interest in openness or healing, if it wasn't for this barbaric act of violence against all freedom i could almost believe that Israel really wasn't a disgusting cesspool of racism arrogance repression oppression and barbaric violence
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

THE SEGREGATION WALL! do you know what that is!


Yes, indeed I know what it is. I think that while useful in some situations, it is complete overkill. However, you have not responded to my comment about Israel wanting peace. Look at the Oslo Accords, and see who backed out. And yes, I know Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli.
sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

again you have failed to respond to mine, is there any justification possible for the segregation wall?! no its a disgusting monstrosity, any country that justifies that use of horrifying cruelty on a civilian population can say whatever it wants, but while that wall stands Osrael can have no claim to want peace

zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

As long as the PA refuses to recognize Israel as a country, Israel doesn't have a reason to want peace. Why make peace with someone who doesn't even think you exist!? That would be like me (a Jew) trying to make peace with Santa Clause! I don't think he exists! And I already said that the seg. wall is complete overkill.

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