Forums → WEPR → Should Israel Exist

and because of Israel, Palestine literally does not exist, and its common practice to not recognise a country, ist not that they just think oh well thats just not there, its more that they refute its right to exist

and i dont understand? do you think Israel should make peace, your views seem contradictory

also i dont see how you can brush off the SW so easily, how can you possibly defend any of the actions of a country that sues this kind of evil evil evil digusting tactic, he says your not demons from hell, this works to convince me otherwise...

did you guys even read the post you just quoted! i am not such a complete moron i would compare the holocaust to opertaion cast lead, the segreagtion wall!

THE SEGREGATION WALL! do you know what that is!? ive brought it upo enough times and its been ignored, read my post again, i was talking about the bloomin segraegtion wall! adress the point! its been brought up enough!!

as you can tell this is starting to annoy me as your basically calling me a moron because of something i didnt say, a comparison i didnt make, THE SEGREGATION WALL!

as for the BBC please post a link or video, i watch their news every day and can say that in all matter apart form british politics they are completely impartial, as for your media i am talking about television news, post alink to a report on amain channel talking about an Israeli crime

I think it's a little unfair that a Mosque can't stand without a permit when 300,000 internationally illegal houses can.

The various agreements reached between Israel and the Palestinians since 1993 contain no prohibitions on the building or expansion of settlements. -Link

In March 1971 the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said. "The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel and for our Arab unity. In reality, today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people.

wow well if you were aiming to post something ignorant and racist then you have succeeded

anyways i think we are done on the tactics thing, agree to disagree, now the only reason i was so emotional is because ive brought it up so many times and been ignored and its starting to become tiresome especially when you people try to make it seem like im saying things im not

and dont try to regulate the thread its been working fine for 20 pages before you got here, just let the argument run as it will

wow well if you were aiming to post something ignorant and racist then you have succeeded

and i dont understand? do you think Israel should make peace, your views seem contradictory

wow well if you were aiming to post something ignorant and racist then you have succeeded

Let's not get personal..

Yes, I do think Israel should make peace. However, as long as the PA and Hamas don't recognize the country, and the latter keep calling for its destruction, then there is no tangible reason for Israel to make peace. The only thing that would be accomplished is a piece of paper signed, and then more rockets launched, with Israel then being able to actually declare war on the new Palestinian country.

It wasn't ignored, I responded to it in my two last posts.
And I've seen this kind of threads before. When you debate everything in the same time it will be a mess. If that's what you want then its fine with me but I'll respond to certain parts at a time, I just don't have the time to spend 20min writing a post each time.
For the tactics issue I didn't expect anything less as a response but what I'm hoping to achieve is to let you see how our side sees the issue so if you think we are mistaken and brainwashed then fine but know we are human beings and not demons from hell. Were not lying to you here, were telling you our side and this is how we see it.

Unless you want otherwise, I'll go ahead and respond to the wall and occupation thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Westbank_barrier.png
The wall is not built to make a punishment for the Palestinians in the West bank or anything like it. Its a mistake to think so. Its meant to prevent terror attacks and smuggling of weapons. In fact, it succeeded in stopping countless terror attempts and saved a lot of lives. Its built around main settlements and it protects the settlers as well as give Israel more legitimacy to that part of the West bank. That covers around 10-15% of the West bank, as seen in the link I brought.
On the Palestinian side its a disaster because it gives Israel more legitimacy to part of the West bank and East Jerusalem, something they want to keep. Also, it lengthens the distance needed to pass between certain areas and therefore hurts the economy. But if you look at the picture, you will see the economy part is minor because its only troubling the Western most part of the West bank. And the West bank economy is rocketing up in the recent years (mostly by Western donations).

Why does Israel want part of the West bank?
1. Historic right. Weather you think it's right or wrong, its a fact that both people feel a historic bound to the place and nothing can change that no matter how hard you try. Its just something that needs to be excepted.
2. Israel won it in a war. Like almost every war, the winner takes land as a prize. In this case, the 1967 6-day war, the war was even started by the Arabs in an a attempt to destroy Israel and &quotush the Jews back into the sea".
You can find the same when: USA bit Mexico in a War and had taken half their country, the Entente taking about half of Germany when they won WW1, China taking 100% of Tibet when they bit them in a war, etc. Wherever you are from I'm sure I can give you an example for you're country too. You can say this is bad but that's reality - winners take prizes and there's no reason for this case to be the exception.
In fact, you can say it has a good effect because it makes Arabs think twice before declaring a war on Israel. Because they DO have something to lose from it. And I remind you that human lives isn't a calculation for them when thinking about starting a war, at least not back then it wasn't.
3. Israel NEEDS the land for its defensive ability. Before 1967, the boarder between countries hostile to Israel and its main cities was about 10km. Anyone who knows a thing or two about war will know that's extremely problematic. Not to mention the West bank has the high ground advantage. With the current boarders, Israel has the Jordan vally on the eastern boarder and that allows Israel to survive any attack that could come from there.
How did Israel win the 6-day war anyway? A lot of reasons that had to do a lot about luck and even more about mistakes done by the Arab side and the fact that just before the Arabs struck, Israel struck first.
4. Its extremely difficult for Israel to evacuate 300,000 settlers from the West bank and some more from East Jerusalem. Both because of the people themselves, the democratic people's opinion and the religious places over there that while they where in Arab hands, no Jews could ever go visit. Even our most important religious places. Only under Israeli rule where the places in Jerusalem open to all the religions.

Only under Israeli rule where the places in Jerusalem open to all the religions.

Jerusalem was part of the negotiations but it was usually something so hard to negotiate that it was put aside for later. Wikileaks shows negotiations about Jerusalem where still held through.
The main question is should the Palestinians gain East Jerusalem or not. Currently, East Jerusalem was annexed into Israel so for now it's part of Israel and Israeli governments say its going to stay this way bu you never know.
For the religions part, Jerusalem isn't even the 3rd holiest place. Its 3rd holiest only by Sunnis but by Shia Muslims it's almost nothing. Its noteworthy to mention Jerusalem was never mentioned in the Koran and I think this video shows exactly what I mean:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHpMhAzj-Tk&feature=player_detailpage

The association with Islam and Jerusalem is based on an interpretation that its the place were Muhammad left the earth.

I just had to go and take a shower to calm myself down after reading that, you keep telling me your not a demon, but then you come out with one of the most arrogant, racist posts I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

For the tactics issue I didn't expect anything less as a response but what I'm hoping to achieve is to let you see how our side sees the issue so if you think we are mistaken and brainwashed then fine but know we are human beings and not demons from hell. Were not lying to you here, were telling you our side and this is how we see it.

1. Historic right. Weather you think it's right or wrong, its a fact that both people feel a historic bound to the place and nothing can change that no matter how hard you try. Its just something that needs to be excepted.

2. Israel won it in a war. Like almost every war, the winner takes land as a prize. In this case, the 1967 6-day war, the war was even started by the Arabs in an a attempt to destroy Israel and &quotush the Jews back into the sea".
You can find the same when: USA bit Mexico in a War and had taken half their country, the Entente taking about half of Germany when they won WW1, China taking 100% of Tibet when they bit them in a war, etc. Wherever you are from I'm sure I can give you an example for you're country too. You can say this is bad but that's reality - winners take prizes and there's no reason for this case to be the exception.
In fact, you can say it has a good effect because it makes Arabs think twice before declaring a war on Israel. Because they DO have something to lose from it. And I remind you that human lives isn't a calculation for them when thinking about starting a war, at least not back then it wasn't

3. Israel NEEDS the land for its defensive ability. Before 1967, the boarder between countries hostile to Israel and its main cities was about 10km. Anyone who knows a thing or two about war will know that's extremely problematic. Not to mention the West bank has the high ground advantage. With the current boarders, Israel has the Jordan vally on the eastern boarder and that allows Israel to survive any attack that could come from there.

4. Its extremely difficult for Israel to evacuate 300,000 settlers from the West bank and some more from East Jerusalem. Both because of the people themselves, the democratic people's opinion and the religious places over there that while they where in Arab hands, no Jews could ever go visit. Even our most important religious places. Only under Israeli rule where the places in Jerusalem open to all the religions.

The wall is not built to make a punishment for the Palestinians in the West bank or anything like it. Its a mistake to think so. Its meant to prevent terror attacks and smuggling of weapons. In fact, it succeeded in stopping countless terror attempts and saved a lot of lives. Its built around main settlements and it protects the settlers as well as give Israel more legitimacy to that part of the West bank. That covers around 10-15% of the West bank, as seen in the link I brought.
On the Palestinian side its a disaster because it gives Israel more legitimacy to part of the West bank and East Jerusalem, something they want to keep. Also, it lengthens the distance needed to pass between certain areas and therefore hurts the economy. But if you look at the picture, you will see the economy part is minor because its only troubling the Western most part of the West bank. And the West bank economy is rocketing up in the recent years (mostly by Western donations).

Okay, I'm adding something to the debate. Who do you think should have control over Jerusalem, considering that Israel is pretty much there to stay.

PS I say Israel considering that it is the holiest site for Jews, and only the 3rd holiest place for Muslims.

your religion has no proof or historic evidence to say you are from that part of the world

Israel has the might of America behind it, it has funds and goods from America, and it has Americas political power

just because someone a few decades ago declared war on you for arguably justified reasons gives you no right to hold on to land that isnt yours

why would Israel want to hold on to these areas it just causes more conflict, and by your logic the Arab world should really now be attacking Israel as the SW is a violation of international law

Actually, grave sights have been proven to be those of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in Me'arat ha-Machpela (Cave of the Patriarchs).

I just had to go and take a shower to calm myself down after reading that, you keep telling me your not a demon, but then you come out with one of the most arrogant, racist posts I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

i can see your side fully, you were given the land and have lived there peacefully, then you were attacked by Arabs who wanted to destroy you because of your religion, then the world turns round and accuses you of war crimes, but why don't you try to see it from a Palestinian point of view:

You were living in an area that has been part of various empires for years, a war rages across the globe that you have nothing to do with, all the while more and more European Jews flood into your country, the war ends and you are promised by Britain that you will have your own country, before you know it however half your country has been given to the Europeans, other Arab countries attack on your behalf but are defeated, your land now begins to be constantly encroached on, with numerous military operations attacking people you have nothing to do with but somehow managing to destroy your house and kill your family members, however you have no right to be angry apparently!?!

HOW DARE YOU! that is arrogance at its height, its been proven nearly all European Jews are not Semitic, your 2 bit holy book has no sway in this its a book that the Arabs have no belief in at all, your religion has no proof or historic evidence to say you are from that part of the world, you have no reliable evidence! you have no right or reason to that area of the world! that is what you need to accept!

you talk like were in the middle ages! just because someone a few decades ago declared war on you for arguably justified reasons gives you no right to hold on to land that isnt yours, thats not how the modern world does business, you say you arent demons from hell yet you come out with drivel like this, a lost war is no exscuse to punish a nation of children that didnt participate in the war, to punish people for something they may have supported but had nothing to do with

Israel has the might of America behind it, it has funds and goods from America, and it has Americas political power, the Arab nations are no longer in a position to attack Israel

well it was pretty difficult to get them in there in the first place, who cares if they're to stay, if someone moves into your house and you come back and say this is mine, and they say well we've moved the furniture in now you don't just oh well OK then

and has it ever occurred to you that its quite hard for an entire nation to live in a tiny area that is alos filled with 300,00 people who don't belong there

i dont care whatever the hell the reasoning is, its a violation of their basic human rights, people have to suffer behind a massive ugly wall that is protecting people who have no right to be there, you have no defense for that evil piece of repressive architecture

it should fall under the control of the UN as an international city, as per the origional plans fro the region, it seems the only option that is fair

it should fall under the control of the UN as an international city, as per the origional plans fro the region, it seems the only option that is fair

Lets keep racism out of this. Was it a flame war you wanted all along?

Not exactly. The way I see it Arab governments needed a way to unit the Arabs that where already extremely hostile to each other so they started uniting against a common enemy. That decision was followed by massive racist propaganda that had grown hatred in many Arab minds regarding Jews and Israel in particular. And no I don't think you understand this from our view by the way you answered my hospital question. That sort of answer was baseless and can only be true if assumed Jews are evil to the core.

Arabs have Russian backing

I dare. I take this as a personal insult btw, guess who I am. If you think I'm not Semitic prove it. There are also historic evidence I'm from here and without going stupid and googling it you can open a bible. And again all this emotion... And btw, even the Koran says this land was given to the Jews by god. Again, you can google it.

Almost every example I showed you was from modern history. For more examples from more modern history you can look at the Balkan wars. And you ignored what I said about keeping Arabs from making wars. The only way you can justify that is if you think Arabs don't want war but it seems you don't believe that either. I'm confused.

Did you just call me a Nazi?

Are you really a moderator here?

Its difficult both politically and economically. Point 4 was about practical reasons the 1967 boarders can happen, not moral reasons. The public in Israel doesn't want to evacuate all of them and if you know a thing or two about democracy you will know it makes it almost impossible.

Not much basic human rights lost compared the amount of lives saved. If you think all the settlers need to die then I'm taking the wrong approach with you. Again, if you want to see what a lack of human rights is, look at Africa, southern Asia or better - almost all the rest of the Arabian countries. What Israel does is a piece of cake compared to what those guys are/where through. As shown in the recent events.

Too late for that, too many non christian blood was spilled there recently for that to happen. Although I do agree that could have been a good idea would it be practical.