ForumsWEPRShould Israel Exist

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zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

The question is simple. Should Israel exist. I know that this subject is very controversial so I am setting some "ground rules."
1. Because Israel is so tied into Judaism, NO ANTI-SEMETIC COMMENTS
2. Please back up your reasoning with facts
3. Respect other's opinions. I cannot tell you how many times I have been on CNN and seen people flinging mud at each other. BE RESPECTFUL!

I am looking forward to seeing the posts and logic behind the opinions.

For the record, I think it should exist.

  • 339 Replies
Alexistigerspice
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Alexistigerspice
1,502 posts
Farmer

Yes, Israel should exist? If it is a real tangible place, then it sort of has to exist right? It is a real place regardless of religious ties and should not not exist just because there are less Jews in the world. I think thats a weird question:/

sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

you clearly have no idea what we are talking about, read the thread and do some research

zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

and i say, and any other intelligent free thinking person can see, oh yeah and the red cross, but i bet they are anti semite racists as well are they?


Chicken, since you bring up the Red Cross, then please let me know exactly how many Red Cross visits Gilad Shalit has had. Since Hamas captured him in a cross-border raid at Kerem Shalom, he has not had any verified medical treatment, any visits from his family, or any care packages. In the meantime, all Hamas prisoners have received Red Cross visits, care packages, etc.

Also, I hope that you realize that the only places where people are called anti-Semetic for questioning Israel's right to exist is on a CNN forum. I would hope that you avoid those as people like Laffin (someone who insults everyone who criticizes Israel), are not a model example of those who believe Israel should exist.
BTW, I read the CNN forum for laughs. :P
Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
1,482 posts
Shepherd

Tomerthekng, You need to do some research and history.
You had a nice paragraph, but the start of it was off so I'm just going to address that one portion of it.

Israel took land from the English empire who gave it up freely.


I have no idea where you got that from. If you'd like, I can redirect you to Wikipedia.
That entire region was covered a by a little thing called the Ottoman Empire, you know, the thing that lasted for a few hundred years.
Following World War 1, The British captured Jerusalem, defeating the Turks both in Anatolia and the western side of the Arabian peninsula, as one of the last battles of the War.

Following this, the British rejected their promise to give freedom to these lands, as many western countries adopted the ideas that they should be 'mandates' as they cannot govern themselves. As such, many arab states were subject to opposition.

It was at this point that Britain felt that Jews felt misplaced in the world, so it gave money to popularize the idea of returning to a long forgotten homeland and THEN carved up a hole for Jewish living.

Yes, Israel should exist? If it is a real tangible place, then it sort of has to exist right? It is a real place regardless of religious ties


wtf?

hey had solviet armor, which was superior

Er... How much Soviet Armor? Following Syria's rejection to communism without further acceptance of it in the communist world, Syria was practically isolated from Western talks for a decade.

demand its lost land, killing civilians in the process. In the following talks, there were a few key points that neither side agreed ever to back on.


Sounds a lot like Jewish Zionists.
Except for the fact, this whole 'killing civilians' thing is of a few subjected and poor terrorist groups, and though the media conceptualizes them as extra Osama Bin Ladens, they themselves are nothing more than people fighting for what they believe is there homeland. So my question is, are you supporting the rule of a warmonger who was able to take cake from the UN and hold it?

Lets not forget, that, as we have before, that "Israel did not successfully block and defend". Without Western juice in their economy and military, they were doomed.

Lastly, the only Arabs there to cry were Palestinians. The rest were people with their own nationality, so that comment did not make much sense at all -- seeing as they didn't lose much land.



If so, then you're entire statement against America is a load of bullcrap.

But just to say so anyway.
Our War on Mexico followed the war between Mexico and Texas, which was a dispute over river boundaries -- Texas was completely neglected at the time, and the settlers realized that their overpopulation could not be controlled out by the few Mexicans there were in the area, and for that reason, a rebellion ensued, but Texas was not annexed until 1945.

With it's annexation, Mexico realized it's not coming back and a war ensued.

As for Slavery, it was a trademark of agricultural throughout the world, and I admit, it defied the constitution, but it does not take America's legitimacy away from itself.

And cut the BS on Nuking. Israel has Nukes and it isn't even a declaratory member of the five powers. Also, we Nuked to save lives. It's better than the radioactive waste in Russia.

Killed? I don't think I have argue against that.
Racist and Sexist -- A trademark of the world 200 years ago, not to mention, 200 years ago Jewish communities were so isolated it was unreal.

Own the world media? Not our fault we're good at giving news, and, not to mention, Jews own American media so... Yeah.

As for supporting dictators, that's the stupidest thing I've heard.

I'll just respond to that, your list of atrocities is too long.

Kind of like us stealing nazi territory during WW2.


I'd like to state another 'wtf'.
sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

i would assume they dont visit him as they are not able or allowed to? not because they choose to neglect his right to fair treatment?

and while were talking about aid not going to people, perhaps youd like to explain the israeli naval blockade? or perhaps theyre reported refusal to allow red cross aid to starving children in their homes crying over the bodies of their dead CIVILLIAN parents,

and while you bring up the nazis id like to state this; ive said it before and ill say it again, the israelis total disregard for human life seems disgustingly ironic considering the history of the jews

zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

I did not bring up the subject of Nazis. If you read my post you would know that. As to the naval blockade...

According to the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994, a blockade is a legal method of warfare at sea, but is governed by rules. The blockading nation must publish a list of contraband. The manual describes what can never be contraband. Outside this list, the blockading nation is free to select anything as contraband. The blockading nation typically establish a blockaded area of water, but any ship can be inspected as soon as it is established that it is attempting to break the blockade. This inspection can occur inside the blockaded area or in international waters, but never inside the territorial waters of a neutral nation. A neutral ship must obey a request to stop for inspection from the blockading nation. If the situation so demands, the blockading nation can request that the ship divert to a known place or harbour for inspection. If the ship does not stop, then the ship is subject to capture. If people aboard the ship are resisting capture, they can be attacked.


This sounds a lot like what happened with the MV Mavi Marmara, when they tried to run a legal and enforced blockade, ignored orders to divert, were warned that they would be boarded, and then attacked Israeli soldiers when they attempted to air drop onto the ship. Had the flotilla members let the commandos on board, then they would not have been able to be detained for an extended period of time, would not have been fired on, and all supplies that is legally required to get to Gaza would have gone through.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_F_w6VPxZlEE/TBdCIWL1LNI/AAAAAAAAA0k/Dd6f-6Ib2JU/s1600/bigger+picture.jpg


I believe this says it all...
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to apologize for the size of the photo.

CommanderDude7
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CommanderDude7
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Nomad

but Texas was not annexed until 1945.

Just wanna clear up the fact that it was in 1845 that it was annexed. Probably just a typo though.

Now onto my thoughts on the matter. I believe that the entire re-apportioning of land in the middle east was done poorly. There was no real thinking of culture or people when the land was divided. Probably added to many of the problems of today. Anyways, I do think that Israel should exist. At least now they have some guns to shoot back at the world.
sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

shoot back at the world? by the world i assume you mean the faces of innocent civillians?

i didnt say you brought up the nazis someone else did, and israel has broken those laws, they basically point blank reufse to let anyone through, and who ever drew that cartoon is misinformed, it shows them as arabs with knives and guns, when they were in fact irish and had not actual weapons to speak of

CommanderDude7
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CommanderDude7
4,689 posts
Nomad

shoot back at the world? by the world i assume you mean the faces of innocent civillians?

At any who threaten their rights. Everyone has a right to defend themselves Israeli or Palestinian.
sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
1,143 posts
Nomad

any anyone any where near them, and anyone near to them, so not just those who threaten their rights but also those related to, in the vicinity of and people who look like those who threaten theor rights

anyway that point sums up the whole reason for the conflict, the palestinians believe they are defending themselves, as do the israelies

zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

they were in fact irish and had not actual weapons to speak of


Okay, so metal poles and chairs are not considered weapons, even when being swung at high velocity at another person. I understand now. (sarcasm)
sprooschicken
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sprooschicken
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Nomad

well thats not what i meant, clearly these things can be considered as weapons yes, but the cartoon implies they went there well armed specifically to attack and kill soldiers, however they had not come prepared to fight, they had no guns or knives, and so this was clearly not the case

that cartoon is a meaningless piece of israeli propoganda and has no worth in any debate of this kind, if you were to base your information of what happened from that cartoon you would think that basically an invading militant group of arab terrorist who were well armed with guns and knives went to run the israeli blockade under the guise of peace activists with the intention of turning world opinion against israel

where as the actual facts are vastly diferent

Armed_Blade
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Armed_Blade
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Shepherd

Nice catch, commando! And yeah it was a typo... 1845, my bad


@Zakyman, I think you're misunderstanding. I never said they broke international law in their effort to stop the boat. Any country can do that when it's within their naval vicinity, that's legal.
Even so, what light does that put them in? They stopped a boat coming to help them.
Not to mention, for those who don't know, the Red Cross's full name is "The Red Cross and Red Crescent" -- seeing as it operates in Islamic countries, as well. Any help from the Crescent side is usually rejected by Israel.


Okay, so metal poles and chairs are not considered weapons, even when being swung at high velocity at another person. I understand now. (sarcasm)


Sprooschicken already sort of layed it out, but, if a crime scene were to happen in a house, and you saw a man with a gun on the floor, and another with a lamp on the floor, both knocked out -- who would you assume started the fighting? Furthermore, who would you assume intentionally came in to attack?


Anyways, I do think that Israel should exist. At least now they have some guns to shoot back at the world.


But... They aren't their guns. We're helping them, we gave them it all. Now that it's there, you think it can just do what it wants?

In case nobody knows, Both presidents Bush and Obama have asked a lot for Israel to cut off on it's settlement agenda over Palestinian property, and multiple times they have refused.

I know it sounds wrong to say, but so far I have yet to see any respect for the liberties that America [and yes, other parts of the world] did work so hard for them to receive.

At any who threaten their rights. Everyone has a right to defend themselves Israeli or Palestinian.


And how, Pray tell, Does a poor Palestinian 'threaten' an Israeli's rights? He can't. He can join Hamas, be labeled as a terrorist, possibly survive and turn into a racist.
Or he could probably leave, which is what the Jews want, since he can't really fight much -- nor does he have much of an option.

Also, If you could, how does an internationally renowned relief organization threaten the rights of an Israeli? Or that of a boat incoming from another country with valid intentions to only help. And fine if you don't agree with the boat, some people can see it as an attack. Still, there's other things on the board.

Whatever the case, Israel's current actions are in no means fair or humanitarian, and if anything they are putting it in bad light than good.
zakyman
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zakyman
1,627 posts
Peasant

I never said they broke international law in their effort to stop the boat.


I wasn't referencing you, I was referencing Chicken.

that cartoon is a meaningless piece of israeli propoganda and has no worth in any debate of this kind,

Actually, I think that that cartoon generally shows what the world actually does see of Israel. Whenever Hamas sends rockets into Israel, and Israel retaliates, then the world condemns Israel for killing militants. Plus, with the blockade, Israel keeps out materials like concrete and chemicals used in explosive devices, which would not be on the list of objects that could NOT be banned.
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