NOTE: This is not an anti religion post, simply a philosophical and age old debate.
Ok, so very very basically, here is an issue with the typical Christian view of God, a view shared by other religions, aside, however.
God is all good God is all powerful (omnipotent) God is all knowing
If God is all good, then why does he make evil things happen? Why does he create murderers and tsunamis?
Some say God creates us with the choice to do good and bad that we may have free will.
So, in this case God creates us without knowing if we'll choose to be good or bad people, or even if we will believe in him/her.
So God doesn't know if we're going to be good or bad, so God is not all knowing.
BUT - Imagine we still want to hold that he his all knowing, i.e he knows everything about everything. This means God creates us knowing that we're going to be good or bad people, this means that he condemns those he creates bad to a life of sin and ultimately hell, so he can't be all Good.
BUT - if we want to still hold that he is all good, then there must be another reason murderers and tsunamis exist, but what? Maybe God created the world, and is not powerful enough to intervene. Then God is no longer all-powerful. Either that or he is powerful enough to intervene, and simply doesn't want to, in which case he is not all good. What do you think about all this?
Which means that regardless of how you look at it, either the existence of God in the Christian sense means that we have no free will, or that God doesn't exist in the capacity that is described by millenia of scripture.
God created satan and satan created sin. God knew this would happen because he is all knowing. He would not stop the devil from tempting people because if he did that WE would not exist.
God created satan and satan created sin. God knew this would happen because he is all knowing. He would not stop the devil from tempting people because if he did that WE would not exist.
How does that work? Your not making any sense.
MageGrayWolf, If you, as a god, interfered at all, then the person would no longer have free will, that is why God Himself must allow these things to happen. He allows them to happen to give us free will.
Another thing about this is if preventing the man from killing his family is going against this free will, then we go against the families free will to go on living.
God created satan and satan created sin. God knew this would happen because he is all knowing.
While he couldn't stop the devil from tempting people, by being omnipotent and omnipresent, he could've just stopped Satan from being created, thereby keeping free will inviolate, while removing evil from the world.
Antithesis: The human faith wouldn't have been challenged, and therefore there would be no point in heaven, because that would be the inevitable result.
Response: That would mean that God created man in a perfect world, knowing that he would be tempted by evil, and thereby set us up for failure.
Doing the good thing does sometimes require interference. But as Somewhat49 said just talking them out of it wouldn't be going against their free will.
Your ultimate goal is still to change their free will. As a god you will not fail in talking them out of their sin, which makes it no longer a 100% free will. Interfering with free will no longer make it free.
Yet we have plenty of examples where God does interfere, accept he usually does so by killing the person.
Give me one example where God interferes with free will.
Even with your example it requires that the events be predestined. God knows what will happen in this "movie" because things can't happen any other way.
Instead of it being God, think as if it were you watching a movie for the second time, and you know what will happen, did you determine what happened in the movie?
Also this whole "God can't be around sin part, doesn't that preclude another aspect that many attribute to him, his omnipresence? You can't be omnipresent and not be around something. Even if there was a hell God would have to be there as well in order to be omnipresent.
Alas, my mind goes blank upon thinking of an answer to this, for I am not omniscient.
Another thing about this is if preventing the man from killing his family is going against this free will, then we go against the families free will to go on living.
Could you clarify that statement a little bit please?
Another thing about this is if preventing the man from killing his family is going against this free will, then we go against the families free will to go on living.
I agree, by not preventing the deat god would be taking away the families free will.
Your ultimate goal is still to change their free will. As a god you will not fail in talking them out of their sin, which makes it no longer a 100% free will. Interfering with free will no longer make it free.
But think of the families free will, if he dosen't as you call it "take away the free will" of the murderer, then you will be taking away the free will of the family who gets killed.
Ultimately, the mans action affects the free will of the family, in that sense God stands as a silent observer, regardless of his ability to interfere.
But think of the families free will, if he dosen't as you call it "take away the free will" of the murderer, then you will be taking away the free will of the family who gets killed.
I do not see how the free will of the family has any relation to the free will of the potential killer. Unless you care to specify further, I will dismiss that statement as irrelevant.
I believe what he meant was that by choosing not to interfere, I allowed another to infringe on their will to live, and therefore violate their free will. However, in that sense, it's still a human force that limits the family's though, rather than God.
Your ultimate goal is still to change their free will. As a god you will not fail in talking them out of their sin, which makes it no longer a 100% free will. Interfering with free will no longer make it free.
So the man wanting to kill his family is no longer making a decision for himself because he heard an argument that convinces him to take another path?
Give me one example where God interferes with free will.
Just off the top of my head.... God kicked Adam and Eve out of Eden to prevent them from eating from the tree of life, Global flood killing most of the planet because of what most people were choosing to do, Hardening of the Pharaohs heart in the Moses story, Preventing people from being able to build the tower of Babel, (if just talking with someone is interfering then...) Handing down the commandments, Having Jesus spread his message, or really any time it's claim he has communicated with people in any form.
Instead of it being God, think as if it were you watching a movie for the second time, and you know what will happen, did you determine what happened in the movie?
No but I would have had nothing to do with the creation of that movie unlike God. But still what happens in that movie is immutable. It would be like destroying part of the movie fro what happened in it, even though that part can't happen any other way.
Could you clarify that statement a little bit please?
The will of the family would likely to want to stay alive. So allowing the man to continue with his free will he denies the free will of the family.
No but I would have had nothing to do with the creation of that movie unlike God. But still what happens in that movie is immutable. It would be like destroying part of the movie fro what happened in it, even though that part can't happen any other way.
In a way, god is like an ammateur movie director. he's fine with improv, but occasionally needs to get back onto the script.
he occasionally interferes with free will, because he sometimes has to interfere with free will. if somebody didn't interfere with free will, more crime would happen, and a lot more people in the world would be rather lazy.
I believe what he meant was that by choosing not to interfere, I allowed another to infringe on their will to live, and therefore violate their free will. However, in that sense, it's still a human force that limits the family's though, rather than God.
It would be through in action. Like if someone was driving recklessly and another person had a kill switch to the car. This person is about to run over some people but doesn't want to stop. The man with the kill switch can either stop the car going against the drivers free will or allow him to run some people over. I'm sure we would regard the person with the kill switch as being negligent if he didn't take action when he could.
he occasionally interferes with free will, because he sometimes has to interfere with free will. if somebody didn't interfere with free will, more crime would happen, and a lot more people in the world would be rather lazy.
Then why allow major harm to occur if it's okay to interfere with free will?
Then why allow major harm to occur if it's okay to interfere with free will?
If you think about it, there is a lot worse that could happen then what is happening now. We have no clue what has not happened in human history that he has prevented. For example, he could have had a hand in the fall of Hitler, the death of all the terrorist leaders recently, even the death of Gadaffi.
Without catching up to the discussion so far, I'd like to answer the original question. The Bible says that when God made everything, His creation was very good. There was no death and suffering, no murderers nor tsunamis. However, Adam and Eve rebelled against God, bringing sin and death into the world (along with a number of other evils). So evil is really our fault, not God's.
Well, I agree that the bad things we do are our fault. But it does not make sense that we need to be punished for what Adam and Eve did. Its not like its okay to punish all the white americans because they used to be slave owners hundreads of years ago. The actions of your ancestors are not your actions and shouldn't be treated that way.
