NOTE: This is not an anti religion post, simply a philosophical and age old debate.
Ok, so very very basically, here is an issue with the typical Christian view of God, a view shared by other religions, aside, however.
God is all good God is all powerful (omnipotent) God is all knowing
If God is all good, then why does he make evil things happen? Why does he create murderers and tsunamis?
Some say God creates us with the choice to do good and bad that we may have free will.
So, in this case God creates us without knowing if we'll choose to be good or bad people, or even if we will believe in him/her.
So God doesn't know if we're going to be good or bad, so God is not all knowing.
BUT - Imagine we still want to hold that he his all knowing, i.e he knows everything about everything. This means God creates us knowing that we're going to be good or bad people, this means that he condemns those he creates bad to a life of sin and ultimately hell, so he can't be all Good.
BUT - if we want to still hold that he is all good, then there must be another reason murderers and tsunamis exist, but what? Maybe God created the world, and is not powerful enough to intervene. Then God is no longer all-powerful. Either that or he is powerful enough to intervene, and simply doesn't want to, in which case he is not all good. What do you think about all this?
Without catching up to the discussion so far, I'd like to answer the original question. The Bible says that when God made everything, His creation was very good. There was no death and suffering, no murderers nor tsunamis. However, Adam and Eve rebelled against God, bringing sin and death into the world (along with a number of other evils). So evil is really our fault, not God's.
No it doesn't say that. It has Eve being easily convinced into eating a magic fruit by a talking snake, thus gaining knowledge of good and evil. She further convinced Adam to also eat. Non of those changes or decision would have brought about physical changes to their environments. All such claims of changes to the environment were attributed to God punishing them. Further more God prevented them from also eating from the tree of life which would negate death. So "death and suffering, no murderers nor tsunamis" is God's fault as he would have been the one to implement them.
And if god created everything, then who created those things?
Then thats like saying that people can't take credit for their own work. Like if your friend asks you if you made that bird house, you would need to reply
"well, no I didn't. You see, god made the earth and the trees, and the people. So after countless generations of life and death sombody cut the wood, I brought it and made this birdhouse out of it. So originally, god made it. So he deserves all the credit, blame, everyting.
No it doesn't say that. It has Eve being easily convinced into eating a magic fruit by a talking snake, thus gaining knowledge of good and evil.
It would be wise to at least try to understand the account before dismissing it. What Satan offered Eve was not just a bite out of some brainfruit, but the opportunity to be like God. So, Eve trusted her judgment more than God's. Adam and Eve both made themselves God. God acted out His righteous judgment by cursing all of creation.
Adam and Eve both made themselves God. God acted out His righteous judgment by cursing all of creation.
Is there really no problem with this? Lets say your father is a criminal, does that mean when you are born that you should be beaten? You cannot punish an innocent person for the deeds of a guilty one.
How does God cause suffering, murders, or tsunamis? We've seen and observed these things done by humans or natural earth causes.
I could ask the same for things like Evolution and the formation of solar systems. For the philosophical arguments being made here I'm having to ignore a good number of logical problems with God and the Bible just to get to this point.
My question is why this same exact thread keeps coming up we all know that everyone has differences in religion why keep talking about?
Personally I believe in god "whoever lack wisdom let him ask of god" -from the book of James in the New Testament.
This thread has nothing to do with whether you believe in God or not, it's just a philosophical debate on the nature of said being.
Then thats like saying that people can't take credit for their own work. Like if your friend asks you if you made that bird house, you would need to reply
Not really a good analogy considering humans aren't the cause of natural disasters.
It would be wise to at least try to understand the account before dismissing it. What Satan offered Eve was not just a bite out of some brainfruit, but the opportunity to be like God. So, Eve trusted her judgment more than God's. Adam and Eve both made themselves God. God acted out His righteous judgment by cursing all of creation.
Cursing all of creation is righteous? I'm not sure if I should lol or facepalm. As read they would only become like gods if they also ate from the tree of life as well. But so what if this was their free will? God being so worried about this sounds like he wanted to repress their development out of some sort of pettiness on his part.(which again would go against this all good nature) We see such behavior in the tower of Babel story. You would think a God who truly cared would be happy to see his creation on their own free will and ingenuity want to try and nearly succeed in reaching him. But no, we instead see this same pettiness.
Is there really no problem with this? Lets say your father is a criminal, does that mean when you are born that you should be beaten? You cannot punish an innocent person for the deeds of a guilty one.
Humans were the head of all creation, so it's perfectly just for God to curse all of creation, not just humanity. As for all of us suffering for Adam's sins, was a perfect person in a perfect place not a fair representative? Even if you cannot accept that, each of us sins, too.
Is there really no problem with this? Lets say your father is a criminal, does that mean when you are born that you should be beaten? You cannot punish an innocent person for the deeds of a guilty one.
Well...
Ezekiel 18 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.
Exodus 20 I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
was a perfect person in a perfect place not a fair representative?
First, if he was perfect how did he do something imperfect. Also, I still don't understand how it fair to be judged by someone else's actions. Can you imagine if one day the police come by your door, and tell you you are sentenced to life in prison, because your brother commited a crime?
Even if you cannot accept that, each of us sins, too.
That, I can accept. Well, you know except for babies.
As read they would only become like gods if they also ate from the tree of life as well. But so what if this was their free will? God being so worried about this sounds like he wanted to repress their development out of some sort of pettiness on his part.(which again would go against this all good nature)
You should consider your clarity and depth of thought on this matter. Did God banish Adam and Eve from the Garden because if they ate from the tree of life, they would practically be gods, and God would just have to put up with equals? That might be petty if that were the case, but it's not. Consider what it would have been like for Adam and Eve to live forever. The fruit would not have been their salvation, their escape from death, but their permanent enslavement to death and suffering. They would live forever physically while being separated spiritually from God. God protected them from this fate by putting the tree of life out of reach.
You seem like a particularly intelligent person, MageGrayWolf, but you should consider that, if the Bible is true, then your mind and heart are hostile toward God and the things of God. That being said, try to understand the account of the Tower of Babel other than a display of God's pettiness. Can you think of another way of seeing it?
I doubt that MageGrayWolf is hostile toward a god if one exists, what he's hostile towards is the Abrahamic God as described in the Muslim, Christian, and Jewish faiths.
You should consider your clarity and depth of thought on this matter. Did God banish Adam and Eve from the Garden because if they ate from the tree of life, they would practically be gods, and God would just have to put up with equals? That might be petty if that were the case, but it's not. Consider what it would have been like for Adam and Eve to live forever. The fruit would not have been their salvation, their escape from death, but their permanent enslavement to death and suffering. They would live forever physically while being separated spiritually from God. God protected them from this fate by putting the tree of life out of reach.
As an atheist I can say that "spiritual" separation aint so bad. Though again for one to be separate from God in any form would preclude God's omnipresent nature. Another thing I find funny is how often this world get's looked at as being "death and suffering" (God allowing it that way precluding all good nature) but when arguing for a God will be quick to point out just how perfect this world is for life. (topic for another thread if wished to be continued)
You seem like a particularly intelligent person, MageGrayWolf, but you should consider that, if the Bible is true, then your mind and heart are hostile toward God and the things of God. That being said, try to understand the account of the Tower of Babel other than a display of God's pettiness. Can you think of another way of seeing it?
Yes if God is how he is described in the Bible I would be against that God. Though if he's really a nice deity I'll be more then happy to have him appear in whatever physical form he likes and we can chat over some tea. For that matter he can appear in my house in any physical form he likes regardless.
