I saw somebody say this on a thread a while back, and just remembered it, "It would be better to reign in hell that serve in heaven."
That's not word for word, and I don't remember who said it, but that is the just of it.
This seems ridiculous to me for several reasons. First, no one will reign in hell, not even Satan himself after God casts him back to hell permanently in the second coming. In hell, you will not have any other human contact, and be forever tortured with the worst pain imaginable, and every second will feel like an hour, and every day like a year. In heaven, you will be a servant of God, but you will want to serve Him. It will not be like being a slave, heaven will be perfect, everything you've ever wanted times ten, with no pain, sadness, or boredom.
In my opinion, that statement is horribly false, but what do you guys think?
I am argueing my belief against your belief. Neither of use can factually prove anything, so we are going to be using beliefs as reason.
In using the word working, I was not referring to God having trouble doing this. He is omnipotent. However, he uses other people to spread the gospel, which takes time, so I used the word working. 99%, really? There are tons of people born into another religion, or even into atheism, who have converted to Christianity. If it was only people born into it, there would be like ten Christians, since the original Apostles and disciples didn't have to many kids.
well i refuse to believe that humans are born bad.
I don't think humans are born bad. I think that as soon as each person sins, they fall short of the glory of God, and must be forgiven by God to get into heaven.
I don't think humans are born bad. I think that as soon as each person sins, they fall short of the glory of God, and must be forgiven by God to get into heaven.
You said humans are born sinful did you not? That's being born bad.
they fall short of the glory of God
Ha, that makes me laugh. The glory of a man who watches all the evil on earth while being omnipotent all because he has a plan. I reiterate, sick and twisted.
And all the sins and everything bad was made by God since he created everything right? Including when he made Eve he knew she'd eat that apple because he's omnipotent. He should beg for all of mankinds forgiveness not the other way around right?
I am argueing my belief against your belief. Neither of use can factually prove anything, so we are going to be using beliefs as reason.
nope. i wont give belief reasons to why i believe in my religion. and you shouldnt give reasons like that either.i could tell you my religion is right because he made chocolate rain and everyboday were happy. doesnt prove anything and is not a reason.
In using the word working, I was not referring to God having trouble doing this. He is omnipotent. However, he uses other people to spread the gospel, which takes time, so I used the word working. 99%, really? There are tons of people born into another religion, or even into atheism, who have converted to Christianity. If it was only people born into it, there would be like ten Christians, since the original Apostles and disciples didn't have to many kids.
why that way? its impractical. he could just tell us what is right and wrong and that he exists yet he doesnt. my opinion of why he doesnt is because its not important and does not affect the future. it is unfair if god doesnt tell us things that only he can tell us. why would we listen to christians that try to convert us? other religions do the same thing and their explanation would be the same as yours. why is their explanation wrong and yours right? in the end neither of you KNOWS that he is right. who knows? you could convert someone out of the right religion and that will be why he will go to hell. but then, both of you will so thats ok right?
when i said that im 99% sure i talked about specificly you. a person who is born into a family that is strict about religion will probably stick with that religion or have a bad relationship with his family.
I don't think humans are born bad. I think that as soon as each person sins, they fall short of the glory of God, and must be forgiven by God to get into heaven.
if its obvious that you will sin its the same as being born bad. and christianity believs that we are all sinners.
also another question, a killer does not regret what he did. but he knows he did something wrong. such a person should be allowed to go to heaven?
on the other side, a homosexual person does not feel he sinned. he is a good person and he never hurt anyone. because he doesnt see that he sinned he will go to hell (and im sure there is no person who is gay and see himself as a bad person just because of that.) and even if that is true, that person is doomed to be at heaven with no love (and if you will now say that its ok to love but not have sex then with no sex. doesnt matter. he still cant do things other people can).
there are many things that are unfair in that belief in my opinion. that is why im saying this. its mostly because people are so sure that they are right without even noticing what they are doing or how logical their way of thinking really is. and when you affect other people whats important is to use logic and not belief. when its just you and your personal feelings go ahead because it doesnt matter.
also another question, a killer does not regret what he did. but he knows he did something wrong. such a person should be allowed to go to heaven?
Anyone is allowed to go to heaven all you have to do to get to heaven is confess that you believe and trust god and ask for repentance so yes a murder could go to heaven.
on the other side, a homosexual person does not feel he sinned. he is a good person and he never hurt anyone. because he doesnt see that he sinned he will go to hell (and im sure there is no person who is gay and see himself as a bad person just because of that.) and even if that is true, that person is doomed to be at heaven with no love (and if you will now say that its ok to love but not have sex then with no sex. doesnt matter. he still cant do things other people can.
doing good works doesnt get you to heaven in the bible it says homosexuality is bad that is the reason god created man and woman.
alovera, those question are directed to cddm because he obviosuly has a different belief then most christians ive met. he said that as long as you see that you did a bad thing you can go to heaven. that means that you can see what you did, dont care about what you did and just go to heaven. honestly.... that wouldnt make heaven such a perfect, safe place. oh unless it has a heavenly prison too :3
"It would be better to reign in hell than serve in heaven."
The line came from Milton's Paradise Lost, and was part of Satan's speech which he made to the Fallen Angels whilst they roasted on the burning plains. Satan was saying it to explain that it was not so bad to be cast down and live in Hell where he and his angels were their own masters, as compared to feel resentful in Heaven. Whilst they dwelt in Hell, they could plot their various schemes to gain Heaven back.
Infernal world, and thou profoundest Hell Receive thy new Possessor: One who brings A mind not to be chang'd by Place or Time. The mind is its own place, and in it self Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n. What matter where, if I be still the same, And what I should be, all but less then he Whom Thunder hath made greater? Here at least We shall be free; th' Almighty hath not built Here for his envy, will not drive us hence: Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce To reign is worth ambition though in Hell: Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n. But wherefore let we then our faithful friends, Th' associates and copartners of our loss Lye thus astonisht on th' oblivious Pool, And call them not to share with us their part In this unhappy Mansion, or once more With rallied Arms to try what may be yet Regaind in Heav'n, or what more lost in Hell?
This seems ridiculous to me for several reasons. First, no one will reign in hell, not even Satan himself after God casts him back to hell permanently in the second coming. In hell, you will not have any other human contact, and be forever tortured with the worst pain imaginable, and every second will feel like an hour, and every day like a year. In heaven, you will be a servant of God, but you will want to serve Him. It will not be like being a slave, heaven will be perfect, everything you've ever wanted times ten, with no pain, sadness, or boredom.
In my opinion, that statement is horribly false, but what do you guys think?
So yes, does it explain why Satan will want to reign in Hell? Of course what Milton wrote is purely fictional, but Satan put forth a pretty convincing argument. If you read Paradise Lost, the Fallen Angels could move between Earth and Hell, in fact Satan himself emerged on Earth to corrupt Mankind.
And false for the serving Him (God) part. A good third of the Angels rebelled against Him due to their pride and unwillingness to bow to His will. And no, I will despise a realm with no pain, sadness, or boredom, because those are still what make me human, the negative aspects to live.
I found no text explaining this or referring to homosexuality as the effect for the sinning of Adam and Eve, Alovera. Please point this out in the correct place?
I found no text explaining this or referring to homosexuality as the effect for the sinning of Adam and Eve, Alovera. Please point this out in the correct place?
I believe he means that after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, sin was created and homosexuality is a sin. I'm not really sure though.
I believe he means that after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden of Eden, sin was created and homosexuality is a sin. I'm not really sure though.
I doubt so, because Aloe was responding to a question that pertained to the creation of humans right from the start? I.e God created humans who were homosexual instead of creating it as an effect of sin?
he said that as long as you see that you did a bad thing you can go to heaven. that means that you can see what you did, dont care about what you did and just go to heaven.
That is not what I said. I believe that you have to believe in Jesus Christ, and accept his forgiveness of your sins to go to Heaven. But anyone, homosexual, murderer, or rapist can go to heaven as long as they confess that they have sinned and accept Jesus.
why would god. the creater that is no male or female, nor any other gender. be against homosexuality?
God being neither male or female doesn't mean he is a "it" human that makes love to himself, it is that he is not human, and doesn't operate in our system of reason. He is against homosexuality because he created man and women to go together. He says very clearly multiple times in scripture that it is a sin.
That is not what I said. I believe that you have to believe in Jesus Christ, and accept his forgiveness of your sins to go to Heaven. But anyone, homosexual, murderer, or rapist can go to heaven as long as they confess that they have sinned and accept Jesus.
So anyone who did a minor sin and is sorry about it, is usually a good and moral guy and would accept jesus' forgiveness if only he would believe in him, goes to hell simply because he doesn't believe, or has never heard of, jesus? Does it sound fair to you?
God being neither male or female doesn't mean he is a "it" human that makes love to himself, it is that he is not human, and doesn't operate in our system of reason. He is against homosexuality because he created man and women to go together. He says very clearly multiple times in scripture that it is a sin.
Do you at least know that for a whole bunch of animals out there, homosexuality is normal, and they didn't went extinct up to now. Also since god made males and females go together, that would show that animals have as much free will as we have to decide to not follow what god made them.
Of course this is stupid because free will or not, homosexual people didn't choose their sexual orientation and thus it isn't their fault, so basically god condemns them to hell.
