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nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,991 posts
Grand Duke

Since this topic hasn't been popping up much, and since the old threads are all so cluttered up, I took the liberty of creating this new one.

So yes, someone asked me for sources about my claims that 1500 species of animals practice homosexual behaviour? Here.


Source 1

Source 2

Now on to one of the sub questions. Is it natural? Well, someone mentioned that it wasn't natural only for humans. Now, why this discrimination? If the Gods of various religions keep throwing and creating people who are homosexual, either a) They're bad factory operators or b) Something is fishy with whatever anti-gay talk religious conservatives swear is sacred.

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Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

I haven't read much Kant, but I see where this argument is coming from. I'm not quite sure these actions meet the standard of the categorical imperative, though. I thought it was that a principle applied universally that had negative consequences was wrong.


Hm, this is an interesting point. Mage, too, seems to think that maybe I've misapplied the categorical imperative here. I'm also beginning to think I may have done so. But one second on that.

How the heck do you apply an action universally? Everyone does it? Everyone does it as often as possible?


The standard for a categorical imperative is still going to be circumstantial. That is, an action can only be performed under certain circumstances. So, breaking a promise, for example, could only happen once a promise is made. But then we run into something like charitable giving, where it's an action that could be done indefinitely (or until you run out of money). The trick here is to identify when such-and-such is a duty or obligation to perform. Then, and only then, does it become an action worthy of moral praise. And of course failing to fulfill said duty is immoral.

But my argument may fail because of the principle in play here. At first I thought about this with the following two principles:

1) A person can have sex only with someone of the opposite sex.
2) A person can have sex only with someone of the same sex.

The consequence I argued for would clearly only obtain when we endorse (2). I saw this as clear motivation that we would be duty-bound to accept (1). This would not imply that we should have sex as often as we can with someone of the opposite sex, only that when we had sex (an otherwise amoral act, barring certain conditions) we should endorse principle (1).

But I completely failed to acknowledge the following:

3) A person can have sex with whomever they choose.

Endorsing this principle does get the cataclysmic outcome I had argued for and it still allows for same-sex relations. Especially when we consider that a) the vast majority people are straight, and b) the vast majority of people enjoy having sex.
And, since it's an action that we enjoy, duty does not enter into the equation. Thus sex, in any form, becomes amoral (barring certain prevailing conditions).

This, of course, is much more in line with my actual thinking. But that was fun while it lasted.
Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,826 posts
Duke

Endorsing this principle does get the cataclysmic outcome


Sorry, I meant to say 'Endorsing this principle does not get the cataclysmic outcome...'. Important word there.
manarion
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manarion
87 posts
Nomad

1 in 4 americans are homosexual. world wide 1 in 6 people are homosexual and in Britain 1 in 10, so many anti gay people are actually ashamed of themselves.
Its sad to think about if your parents dint except you just because your gay and if you got bullied and mistreated by the community i wonder how you would feel.
(this message is meant for all antigay people)

Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

1 in 4 americans are homosexual.


Uh, no. Where did you get this statistic? I can't remember where I read this but it's something on the order of 5% of people are homosexual, which is 1 in 20.
manarion
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manarion
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Nomad

here:
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/05/27/People_Think_1_in_4_Americans_are_Gay/

NoNameC68
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NoNameC68
5,043 posts
Shepherd

here:
http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/2011/05/27/People_Think_1_in_4_Americans_are_Gay/


The keywords here are "People Think". This isn't actually evidence that 1 in 4 American's are gay. In fact, the article even states the following:

The poll is a heavy contrast from the Williams Institute study from earlier this year counting only 3.5% of the population as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, and another 1% as transgender.
Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

Yeah, that article you linked took an online poll where people gave their best guess as to what they thought the percentage of Americans who were homosexual. The average was 25%, and it said that even more put higher numbers. This poll shows that there is CLEARLY some massive misunderstanding about homosexuals in America, as a study was done that showed only around 3.5% were actually homosexual.

manarion
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manarion
87 posts
Nomad

i will try to find a better one, sorry dint really realize that

manarion
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manarion
87 posts
Nomad

here: http://www.gallup.com/poll/147824/adults-estimate-americans-gay-lesbian.aspx

Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

Same problem with that link Manarion. You're linking what people think, not actual statistics.

U.S. Adults Estimate That 25% of Americans Are Gay or Lesbian
Those with lower incomes, the less educated, women, and young people give the highest estimates


Implications

Americans perceive that there is a large U.S. gay population -- one far larger than is likely reality.


This is the actual figure.

Demographer Gary Gates last month released a review of population-based surveys on the topic, estimating that 3.5% of adults in the United States identify as lesbian, gay, or bisexual, with bisexuals making up a slight majority of that figure.
manarion
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manarion
87 posts
Nomad

here: a little off but it says 11 percent are sexually attracted to the opposite sex so 1/10


http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/study-shows-how-many-americans-are-gay-lesbian-bisexual-transgender/news/2011/04/07/18551

thebluerabbit
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thebluerabbit
5,340 posts
Farmer

Its sad to think about if your parents dint except you just because your gay and if you got bullied and mistreated by the community i wonder how you would feel.


this is exactly why im open to them. i think that any parent or friend that can say that "if my child/friend would come out i wouldnt accept him" is a horibble friend/parent who isnt even worthy to have people accepting him. and there are so many people like that.

i mean, my own father almost hated me because im underweight and the army said i dont have to join. i found myself standing half an hour outside my grandmothers house, getting emotionally prepared to face him.

of course having other people to say "he hates his own child because of his weight" is something very embarrasing so he had no choice but to accept it.

im guessing that any sane human in this world thinks that hating your own child because of his weight is horibble. but its just as bad as doing the same because of his sexuality (im talking about genes but even if not it doesnt matter.) and any person who wont accept someone because of his sexuality is as bad as someone who doesnt accept someone because of his weight.

i suffered only alittle bit of what im guessing most of the gay people suffer and almost couldnt bear it and this is why im trying to talk to the people who dont accept them.

got alittle personal here sorry XP
Kasic
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Kasic
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Jester

A new study by The Williams Institute of the UCLA School of Law asks, âHow many people are lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender?,â and shows that almost nine million American adults â" close to 4% of the American adult population â" identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgender, and breaks down those numbers


Again. You're looking at this, yes?

11% of the population, more than 25 million Americans, acknowledge some same-gender sexual attraction.


There's a large difference between feeling some sort of attraction and actually being homosexual/heterosexual.
manarion
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manarion
87 posts
Nomad

here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090215175233AAs92ku

( so some studies say 20# some 10# some 4# ???)

Kasic
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Kasic
5,552 posts
Jester

so some studies say 20#


No, that was the average estimation a while ago. It wasn't based on fact, just what people thought.

some 10#


That was the gallup study a while back, which said that as many as 10% may be homosexual.

some 4#


This is the most common result.

It depends on what people are looking for, and how people view certain questions. For example, if someone were asked, "Have you ever felt anything for someone of the same sex?" that can be interpreted many different ways.
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