I was wondering if you actually do say the Pledge. Meself, I don't. I'll stand up for it, although I don't feel like standing. My reasons? Well, for one, I don't want to pledge to a country. Don't get me wrong, I think this country is great, but I don't pledge to anything. And, second, it says "with liberty and justice for all." Really? Can homosexuals marry the person they love? Can Atheists hold a place in office in some states? We are *a little bit* far from liberty, equality, and justice for all.
I say the pledge and sing the anthem every weekday morning; been doing so for the past decade without fail. Partially because of school policy, but partially because of genuine patriotic feeling. I might just be perjured as a nasty nationalist by lefties, or as a government stooge by the rest of my sadly politically apathetic Singaporeans, but I say it with gusto. I owe almost my entire top notch education, which has been funded somewhere into nearly into the hundreds of thousands of dollars for the past decade to the government and the country, I owe the excellent judicial system and low crime environment to them, I owe them the racial stability and the 50 years of phenomenal economic growth.
So would I continue to say the pledge? Yes, wholeheartedly. I might be a perverse cynic towards life, but I won't bite the hand that has fed me. Ingrates, that's how I feel my fellow countrymen are, complaining about every little thing, such as the dollar entry into the downtown area, when they drive cars worth hundreds of thousands.
my country don't has a pledge. well there is but not for everyday and everyone. also is our anthem almost 20 min long. so we never listen to the compleet song and no1 knows all the words of the song. but that kinda is because the sentences in the anthem are old dutch (it's the oldest anthem in the world ) but then again the people in my country are not nationalist/petriots. we are not showing our flag 24/7 or anything like that what happens in prety much other countrys.
so... saying the pledge? never, only infront of judge (oath). or when we get a new president, then he has to say it aswell. but nothing more then that i can think of.
I know this is from a few pages back, but, you know, sometimes you just can't let things pass:
and don't get hit as often with forestfires as other countries do
What are you talking about? This is wrong for so many reasons. First of all, we get hit with forest fires all the time. Just look at California and Alaska. Secondly, many (but not all) forest types contain many fire adapted species. These species actually require fire in order to flourish. By preventing forest fires, we are fundamentally changing the compostion of the forest. In some cases, like in the NE, things have already progressed to the point where there isn't really anything we can do about it. But in other places, like in the Redwood forests of California, this is a serious problem.
Redwoods have extremely thick bark that prevents fire damage, as long as the fire stays at ground level. But, by preventing forest fires from occurring as frequently as they normally do, other, less adapted trees start to grow along side the redwoods. Then, when a fire inevitably does start, it has MUCH more fuel than it normally would. This allows the fire to reach the canopy of the redwoods, creating massive fires. Basically, preventing small fires in the short term will only increase the likelihood of massive fires in the long run.
Now to actually address the point of this thread:
So would I continue to say the pledge? Yes, wholeheartedly. I might be a perverse cynic towards life, but I won't bite the hand that has fed me. Ingrates, that's how I feel my fellow countrymen are, complaining about every little thing, such as the dollar entry into the downtown area, when they drive cars worth hundreds of thousands.
How is not saying the pledge "biting the hand that feeds you"? How does that harm the government? Even if it does, is a government that is so unstable that it can be hurt by refraining from saluting it really that great of a government in the first place?
Another point: it appears you appreciate the people responsible for the benefits you are experiencing, rather than the idea of government itself. I don't know how your pledge goes, but ours doesn't refer to specific people or even specific groups of people. Just the Flag, the Country, and the Republic. If yours is at all similar, wouldn't your daily pledge serve better to show your appreciation if you, you know, actually thanked the people responsible for your success?
I mean, its not like they are watching you say the pledge or anything.
How is not saying the pledge "biting the hand that feeds you"? How does that harm the government? Even if it does, is a government that is so unstable that it can be hurt by refraining from saluting it really that great of a government in the first place?
It doesn't. What I'm saying is that Singaporeans in general tend to bite the hand that feeds them. It spiralled out of the pledge bit into a general rant about people who complain about the little things about the government.
Another point: it appears you appreciate the people responsible for the benefits you are experiencing, rather than the idea of government itself. I don't know how your pledge goes, but ours doesn't refer to specific people or even specific groups of people. Just the Flag, the Country, and the Republic. If yours is at all similar, wouldn't your daily pledge serve better to show your appreciation if you, you know, actually thanked the people responsible for your success?
The thing is, the government and the main party in power and the state are almost synonymous here because they have always been in power since independence, and doing a darn good job at it. The pledge is synonymous with the ruling party and the country itself, unlike America.
And I'm not exactly sure what you meant by thanking the people who gave me such benefits, as compared to thanking the government, because thanking the former is the same as thanking the latter, since they are the same.
They aren't watching me. So? As stated earlier, the idea of government and state being fused, love for the country is also translated for me into appreciation for the government.
And I'm not exactly sure what you meant by thanking the people who gave me such benefits, as compared to thanking the government, because thanking the former is the same as thanking the latter, since they are the same.
Well, there are bound to be specific people responsible for certain policies that you particularly agree with/benefited from. There are sure to be ways to show your appreciation for their actions in a more direct way than a daily pledge.
I actually just read the Singapore pledge, and it is much different. The word allegiance isn't even mentioned (in the English translation). It's more about building a better society than blatant nationalism. I definitely prefer it to ours, but I still wouldn't say it because I'm fundamentally opposed to any kind of mass oath/pledge/etc.
They aren't watching me. So? As stated earlier, the idea of government and state being fused, love for the country is also translated for me into appreciation for the government.
I suppose I was going with the whole "if a tree falls in the forest..." thing. In what way does your appreciation matter?
Well, there are bound to be specific people responsible for certain policies that you particularly agree with/benefited from. There are sure to be ways to show your appreciation for their actions in a more direct way than a daily pledge.
There are. And yes I do, by joining their youth associations. A daily pledge is just another way to show such sentiments, even if no one gives two hoots about it. I don't see the big fuss about that.
It's more about building a better society than blatant nationalism.
It is. But most of us, or shall I say, all of us are subtly aware that such allegiances have been encouraged in no small way towards the current party. It's just not mentioned inside the pledge.
I suppose I was going with the whole "if a tree falls in the forest..." thing. In what way does your appreciation matter?
Doesn't. That doesn't stop me from appreciating and supporting them via patriotic sentiments.
Oh, thank you Nichodemus!! Finally someone on this forum who doesn't hate patriotism!
I don't hate it. I just don't think it does any good, but can cause harm.
Really, my biggest issue with the pledge is that we're forcing school children to say it. I have no problem with people saying it, but having them repeat it day after day after day in school, from the time when they're really too young to ever understand what it is to the time they're an adult, is ridiculous. It's indoctrination and brainwashing in a very overt way, and we'd be better off without it.
Now, if those same students when they are older find that they do feel a sense of patriotism for their country and want to support it by saying the pledge (how that supports it I don't really know, but w/e) I would be fine with that.
Because it's tradition. It's how American students start their day off. You don't HAVE to say it, you have the ability and right to sit down or look away if you wish.
