Forums → WEPR → The God Debates
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There have been so many interesting topics and conversations in these threads about God, but they end up just going in circles - mostly because those on opposite sides tend to talk past one another. So, to facilitate this excellent dialogue while giving a bit more guidance to the conversation, I (per request) will moderate some discussion. First, some rules:
- Because most of us are familiar with a western notion of God, our conversation will be limited to this kind of God, unless otherwise specified.
- We need to separate the philosophy from the religion. Whatever crimes or irrationality you think a particular group is guilty of doesn't matter here. We're only concerned with arguments.
- Keep to the conversation at hand, and please just ignore those that clearly haven't read the topic introduction.
Ideally, this topic will generate discussion in a particular area until whoever is moderating the discussion feels like the dialogue has run its course. At that point, a new topic will be introduced.
So, first topic:
Does humanity have an intrinsic worth in the absence of God?
So, assuming God does not exist and society recognizes this, would human life have some intrinsic worth? And would this affect arguments against, say, euthanasia, abortion, or suicide?
Perhaps we only have some worth because we think we do, but that's where it ends. Does this line of thought pose any problems? What, if any, advantages would a theist's view of humanity give us when discussing these problems?
- 104 Replies
What, if any, advantages would a theist's view of humanity give us when discussing these problems?
I know there's more than this question up there, but this is the one I'm going to answer because I've been on both sides of the fence, so to speak.
A theist's view is a good view to have should one ever need a bit of hope in life. A theist is able to look at problems as tests, challenges that are to be overcome in order to prove, or test one's faith in god. It is an optimistic view which can help this person in a psychological and emotional development.
A theist is able to look at problems as tests, challenges that are to be overcome in order to prove, or test one's faith in god.
We're assuming here that God does not exist and this has been recognized nearly universally. I'm wondering more if the theist can maintain something along the lines of what you're talking about while not needing a God to appease.
Does humanity have an intrinsic worth in the absence of God?
Without a God we don't defer actions to external forces. As such any accomplishments can only be attributed to our own actions. This way we can have more hope and take more pride in ourselves and the rest of humanity as a whole. So in ways we have more worth without a God.
I guess a good analogy would be riding a bike. It's the difference between being able to take pride in riding with training wheels helping to support you and being able to support yourself with out training wheels.
And would this affect arguments against, say, euthanasia, abortion, or suicide?
I don't see it as having to huge of an effect on these subjects. Some might find such things as being an even bigger waste without a God.
Perhaps we only have some worth because we think we do, but that's where it ends. Does this line of thought pose any problems?
I think the matter is subjective, like morals. So it' not so much that it's just because we think we have worth but what do we think makes us worthy.
A theist is able to look at problems as tests, challenges that are to be overcome in order to prove, or test one's faith in god.
Without a God we can do this for ourselves and/or humanity as a whole.
Does humanity have an intrinsic worth in the absence of God?
As someone who would describe himself as a liberal, I believe in the primacy of individual. Everyone is a means in themseleves, and has intrinsic worth. Of course this applies tot he whole of humanity as well. Essentially, our individuality and uniqueness as human beings is what gives us value.
So, assuming God does not exist and society recognizes this, would human life have some intrinsic worth?
I think so, although I'd be interested to see what would happen to the judicial system. After all, so much of statute law (in Britain anyway) is based on old Christian tenets. That said, I think theist or not, the vast majority of people in society have respect for life. Cold blooded murder is considered wrong universally. I don't think you can pin that one on theism.
And would this affect arguments against, say, euthanasia, abortion, or suicide?
Aside from getting rid of the irrational wackjobs who kill abortion doctors etc, I don't actually think very much would change (from the British system). Abortion would remain legal with some limitations, since the rational arguments for choice vastly outweigh those for life. Suicide would remain legal, although perhaps there'd be slightly more liberalisation, akin to the Swiss system of prior councelling and forwarning of loved ones. Euthanasia is a tricky one, although I think in most places it would remain contentious. In an ideal world it should be liberalised, but in countries which have tried it out, the system has been abused and people have suffered for it.
What, if any, advantages would a theist's view of humanity give us when discussing these problems?
I think having a theists opinion on euthanasia legislation for example is important. It is good to balance the emotive with the rational, even in the law making business. Why? Because looking at things in a cold hard, rational manner can sometimes cloud obvious practical problems. So although theists would oppose it for a completely different reason, it's important to have their mostly regressive outlook as a balancing act to mostly progressive rationalist policy.
Nice new thread! I think this is a step in the right direction. Hey, can you also rename the thread for every time a new topic is introduced, also including the page number? Thank youuu~
-- Humanity has always had an intrinsic worth throughout the years. It is the philosophy that you are worth what you give it that counts. If you wish to have some sort of worth in society, you need to go out there and make one for yourself. If all else fails, then you are worth something to someone that cares about you, which is said a lot. With this in mind, it is a no-brainer that murder, larceny, and the Carnal-Knowledge-Without-Consent word is a no-no in the eyes of everyone. We just don't know for sure if this is the case, since this religious law has been around since 6000 B.C.E (Judaism) This brings me to the next question:
-- All these things could be avoided (except abortion because it involves a second party) if people realized and understood this philosophy, where you are worth something to someone else, whether it is friends, family, or that special someone you have met or have yet to meet in life. The religious who have internal troubles cling on to the principles of Christianity as an escape from what has affected him/her and believes that what they are in now is a shelter from troubles. Think of Meg from Family Guy in that one religious episode if you will. She has been (laughably) abused and neglected throughout her life and having heard that someone (God) is there for her just kept her going. It is when that someone influences your past, present, and future beliefs that it gets out of hand (blind faith).
--Whoops. I'm not sure, but I think I answered two questions in one
Does humanity have an intrinsic worth in the absence of God?
Perhaps but I feel that it wouldn't be able to be defined in the way that our intrinsic worth would be purely subjective. That being said I think that while we can create worth for ourselves the end result will always be emptiness as we will always know that we've created a worth for ourselves and as we know we are not perfect it would be logically to assume that our worth wouldn't be perfect either.
What, if any, advantages would a theist's view of humanity give us when discussing these problems?
As old said a theists view gives meaning to everything as everything works towards the glory of God and his kingdom (I'm assuming here that God does exist). I've switched between agnosticism and Christianity for the last couple years of my life and I've seen one thing that always brings me back to Christianity; when I see someone who has committed their life to Jesus I see ceaseless joy and love in that person. Even if a deity doesn't exist it doesn't take away from the fact that it gives billions of people a hope beyond understanding.
I would like to say thanks for:
Think of Meg from Family Guy in that one religious episode if you will. She has been (laughably) abused and neglected throughout her life and having heard that someone (God) is there for her just kept her going. It is when that someone influences your past, present, and future beliefs that it gets out of hand (blind faith).
Love being called weak =P
That being said I think that while we can create worth for ourselves the end result will always be emptiness as we will always know that we've created a worth for ourselves and as we know we are not perfect it would be logically to assume that our worth wouldn't be perfect either.
It is the fact that we have created a worth for ourselves that's perfect. It is the meaning of the worth that we have given ourselves that serves a purpose in life and the fact that you don't need someone else to give you a purpose that's special. I think of heaven as more along the lines of a reward or a treat for being obedient, rather than a purpose. Saying "you were put on this earth to die and go to heaven" just doesn't taste well. Saying " I was put on this earth to become a specialized doctor to help many people in that area of problems" sounds just about right.
It is the purpose IN life that counts, not the purpose after life, since that is the only period of time of free will that you have.
Saying "you were put on this earth to die and go to heaven" just doesn't taste well. Saying " I was put on this earth to become a specialized doctor to help many people in that area of problems" sounds just about right.
Ah, I think you (and the majority of the secular world) have grossly under estimated a Christians purpose on Earth. We follow God in all we do but this doesn't mean that we can't be a specialized doctor for God it simply means we follow his will over ours as he knows what is best for us. In no way does Christianity take away the ability for you to follow a career that isn't directly associated with the church.
Ah, I think you (and the majority of the secular world) have grossly under estimated a Christians purpose on Earth. We follow God in all we do but this doesn't mean that we can't be a specialized doctor for God it simply means we follow his will over ours as he knows what is best for us. In no way does Christianity take away the ability for you to follow a career that isn't directly associated with the church.
Many Christians say there purpose is to go to heaven (Just look a few pages back on any other religion thread) while atheist are forced to make there own goals or have none.
Does humanity have an intrinsic worth in the absence of God?
Yes, if we knew for a fact, that every invention, every progression that we had made in life, was not because a deity had wished it, but because we had using our skills built better lives for ourselves, as a whole we would have more pride in our selves, a sense of accomplishment perhaps?
And would this affect arguments against, say, euthanasia, abortion, or suicide?
From the arguments that I have heard, against the topics, I can honestly say that not much would change, because a majority of the arguments that I hear, are because they believe it is wrong to take a life, and that there should be no difference between the rights of a fetus and that a full grown human. I have no comment on euthanasia (same as assisted suicide) or suicide as neither of these topics have been discussed by me.
Perhaps we only have some worth because we think we do, but that's where it ends. Does this line of thought pose any problems? What, if any, advantages would a theist's view of humanity give us when discussing these problems?
The thought that there is something, somewhere watching out for you, can provide a great deal of hope when in dire straits. In a society where belief in god is not a trait, there might be and increase in cases of depression or suicide, as people succumb to their problems, however on the same token, the disbelief in god could result in the solving of problems that would cause these afflictions.
The thought that there is something, somewhere watching out for you, can provide a great deal of hope when in dire straits. In a society where belief in god is not a trait, there might be and increase in cases of depression or suicide, as people succumb to their problems, however on the same token, the disbelief in god could result in the solving of problems that would cause these afflictions.
Not sure if I entirely agree. Yes the belief in God can offer comfort in a similar manner as having a parent always by your side. However humans have a strong psychological desire for control. With a belief in God we are deferring some or maybe in cases all control over to God, depriving us of fulfilling that psychological desire. Without God we defer control to ourselves which on a psychological level can motivate a person, helping to alleviate things like depression. It becomes something of a give and take scenario.
^ You know I've never thought of it like that, you make a very good point. Plus that example of a parent is really good, I was wondering how I could explain what I felt theists felt like, and there's the perfect answer.
Perhaps if you understand Christianity better your answers wouldn't be so ridiculous? Clearly from your posts your attempting to understand something by looking from the outside, most likely through a pre-determined bias. I don't attempt to, falsely, rationalize atheistic beliefs and it would be appreciated if you avoided doing the same to theists.
I don't see Christians becoming depressed in great multitudes and your psychological explanation do not apply to everyone.
Sorry if this post seemed abrupt but it's quite annoying to see fallacies posted about your religion and people who believe like you do.
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