Forums → WEPR → Mormonism
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I'm starting this topic to "continue" a conversation started in the Christians vs. Catholics thread. I will include some of the details from there, but the rest are up to anyone new to read up on. I will specifically post the contents of one post, more or less.
We did not baptize Adolf Hitler. That is a lie. After people baptized for Obama's mother, an official release was sent out saying that unless you specifically know the person who's name you are bringing in to do temple work for (not the names that they already have) or they are in your family, you cannot do temple work for them.
We are not barred from being around ex Mormons. We do not necessarily believe they are with Satan. We excommunicate people for their good. In our views, it gives them a second chance. They can rejoin the church later, and their sins will be gone, just as they were when they were first baptized. I know many ex Mormons, and I do not get in trouble for being with them.
South Park is in no way an authority on anything. The fact that you're trying to cite that is pathetic.
Yes, there was polygamy. But it was revoked in the 1890's (even if only for legal reasons). Joseph Smith did not try to burn down a newspaper place. He was taken to jail for no real reason. If he shot back, it was only because they were shooting at him.
The reason non members are not allowed in the temple is because of the sacred things that go on in there. If just anyone was allowed in, the spirit would be disrupted. I will expound on this if needs be.
I am personally ashamed of the acts of other Latter-Day Saints who have done temple work for people without permission from relatives of that person. It is wrong, and we know it.
Tithing... It was actually in Christ's day when it started. The only reason it affects our worthiness to enter the temple (not our standing in general). The Lord gave us everything we have, and all he asks is 10% of what we earn. I'd say that's a pretty small price for life, liberty, and happiness.
Also, we believe in Agency and Accountability. You can choose to do what you want, but you will have to accept the consequences.
I have a testimony of Jesus Christ. He is my savior and my redeemer. I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and that Thomas S. Monson is the living prophet today. I believe the Bible to be true as far as it is correctly translated. I know that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can be forgiven for our sins and return to live with our Heavenly Father. I have seen the Atonement in action in my life. I know that God listens to all prayers to him. He answers them in his own way. I know that I can make it to the Celestial Kingdom if I but do my best to keep the commandments of God.
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one of the large arguments against the LDS faith is that recording of histories and religion were not done so on metal plates...
well.....
(its an argument for and against... but find the part about plates at the bottom)
there are no pictures....
but.... it makes you ask the quetion... "what if?"
admittedly there are lots of holes i don't know about... but i've heard of people actually finding metal plates w/ inscriptions on them that fit the supposed dimensions of the supposed holy book.
i wish a time machine would get invented already :-/
the derp part was supposed to read.... well there aren't any pictures...
I wish people would (1) read my posts so there are no repeat questions that I JUST answered, and (2) take the time to listen to Jeffrey R. Holland. I posted that link for a reason. Once again, if you don't want to watch the whole thing, watch from 5 minutes forward. It will explain so much of what we believe about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. I personally don't want to have to answer everything. If there is a source that IS NOT Wikipedia, I will use it.
Also, I do not believe any articles on anything religious on Wikipedia because it is publicly edited, so it's easy for someone who does not like a religion or knows nothing about the religion except what propaganda they've seen to edit a page and cause others to believe it.
I am going to post the Articles of Faith now, and I really hope they'll answer some of your questions.
1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
LTP, you seem to have missed my response on page 1 concerning the posthumous baptisms thing.
the wiki has sources cited. i made sure that it had references prior to posting it.
one of the large arguments against the LDS faith is that recording of histories and religion were not done so on metal plates...
I would think it's glaring disconnect with historical evidence would be a much bigger issue.
@Hypermnestra the way proxy baptism works is that we perform the work for them, and they can choose whether or not they accept it, because they still have Agency in the next life. Just as someone can choose to accept the Gospel on Earth, one can choose to accept it in Spirit Prison, which is where they will be told of the gospel.
Mormons catch a lot of flak - a whole lot. The reason, I think, is because the origins of the church are so recent, at least compared to other major world religions. We know a whole lot about the founders like Joseph Smith and the actions of the early church.
I contend that if we knew a comparable amount to, say, Paul, that we would also hold Christianity in a similar light. It's not that Mormonism is more preposterous than other religions, it's just that we know more basic facts about its beginning. Christianity, on the other hand, is quite mysterious and the stories have taken on a legendary or mythological status - one that cannot be directly challenged.
At the end of the day, I enjoy hanging around Mormons. They know a great deal about their faith - something that can't be said for Christians. They're also, for the most part, genuinely nice people. And I've never had a Mormon try to convert me at all. I don't know if this is because of some understanding of evangelizing people or whatever, but it's something I really appreciate.
So while it may be easier to directly assault Mormonism, that doesn't make it any less rational to hold than any other faith.
Moegreche, thank you for your post. I think people don't try to convert you or evangelize you for one of two reasons. (1) They may be worried about what you would think of them if they did try, or (2) they can tell you're not interested. A third reason I just thought of is that they might think that's what a missionary is supposed to do.
So while it may be easier to directly assault Mormonism, that doesn't make it any less rational to hold than any other faith.
This is so true. It is always easier to join the crowd where you don't have to study anything and just swallow what they tell you about a group. I used to be this way about a lot of things, albeit a little more skeptical. I now go out of my way to make sure I know something is true before I go telling about it.
I consider myself somewhat of an Academe, and it hasn't interfered [much] with my religion. I believe in the evolution of animals (humans did not evolve [much?], and especially not from monkeys (which was actually never said by Darwin)), because it just seems logical to create a few base species and let them grow and develop and adapt into more perfect species (plural) rather than create them all at once. It also explains how Noah fit 2 of every animal on the Ark.
I hope to continue this conversation. It is really going somewhere right now.
I'll pose the same questions here I do to all mormons.
1. How do you justify the claims made in the Book of Mormon that God darkened human skin for original sin, which was earlier used as a justification for slavery among the mormons.
2. How do you reconcile geological facts that there were no Bronze Age civilizations, or horses, in the Americas at the times purported by the Book of Mormon?
3. How do you reconcile historical differences between the claims of the Book of Mormon and the oral and written traditions of many Native American tribes?
As with any text which claims to be the word of God, either these inconsistencies are proof that said God is not infallible and thus not perfect, or that the works are not the work of a perfect God and thus are no more or less holy or infallible in nature than the works of any other human author.
@Hypermnestra the way proxy baptism works is that we perform the work for them, and they can choose whether or not they accept it, because they still have Agency in the next life. Just as someone can choose to accept the Gospel on Earth, one can choose to accept it in Spirit Prison, which is where they will be told of the gospel.
You seem to misunderstand. I know perfectly well what proxy baptism is, but you are still baptizing them by proxy in this life, whether they accept it in the next life or not. They cannot give their permission for you to do so, therefore it is not okay for you to baptize them posthumously because whether or not they accept it in the "next life" you are forcing it upon them in this one.
I believe in the evolution of animals (humans did not evolve [much?], and especially not from monkeys (which was actually never said by Darwin)), because it just seems logical to create a few base species and let them grow and develop and adapt into more perfect species (plural) rather than create them all at once. It also explains how Noah fit 2 of every animal on the Ark.
You really want to go there?
BTW Darwin isn't the only source of information on evolution, so just because he may not have stated it, it doesn't mean jack.
I consider myself somewhat of an Academe, and it hasn't interfered [much] with my religion. I believe in the evolution of animals (humans did not evolve [much?], and especially not from monkeys (which was actually never said by Darwin)), because it just seems logical to create a few base species and let them grow and develop and adapt into more perfect species (plural) rather than create them all at once. It also explains how Noah fit 2 of every animal on the Ark.
Well, that could be because your information isn't entirely accurate. Evolution, even that of humans, is a well documented fact. It happens, we've observed it happening, and we can trace our evolution back to the earliest forms of life, both through DNA as well as fossil records.
Furthermore, we also know that Noah didn't fit every animal on an ark, especially not only a few thousand years ago, because we have well documented histories of the evolution of animals which exist today and existed prior to the proposed Noachian flood.
We know how evolution works, how long it takes within most species, and that it would be impossible for it to create the variance we see today from only a few thousand years. It may be an inconvenient idea, but humans have evolved from simpler creatures and we know that our nearest living relative is the chimpanzee, and that according to DNA and fossil evidence humans are taxonomically apes.
weapons?
doesn't explain metal
..... more random stuff....
i mean... i liked this episode...
as for animals... i don't know... i used to think llamas were horses
other then that... not a clue
i hope no1 gets mad over my using sources in the discussion... i hope u don't expect me to fabricate answers whose facts and data i've never seen...
weapons?
While interesting, it relies on being open to interpretation. Sure, we can say there are some similarities, but wouldn't the almighty or his prophets know the difference? I mean, if modern man can distinguish between a sword and club shouldn't God be able to do so? And if he can't then we are granting that modern humans have more knowledge than God. One common reference is to metal swords covered with rust (Mosaiah 8:11) which debunks the entire line of reasoning that the wooden and obsidian weapons were considered selfsame as 'swords'.
Furthermore we see continuous references to Mesoamericans having access to bronze age items like bronze and steel, yet we know the process needed to make these items and there is no archeological evidence of smelting works, mining the necessary materials, or the by-products of the related processes. The bottom line is that if it were true there would be records and evidence, which we do not find. What we do find is evidence that these processes were introduced by explorers who came thousands of years later and who had these technologies in their nations of origin.
rnrn..... more random stuff....
Most of what I see here are arguments relying on obscurely published and outdated studies, notably from 50 years ago and more. Modern research has already addressed many of these claims. Also the common assertion I'm finding on this page is that "they had the technology and materials, but they were rare and disappeared in pre-Columbian times."
Well, that one doesn't work either, because even to produce one steel item one needs a rather vast mining and smelting network, and such processes would leave behind much evidence, just as we have found from the Spaniards and other explorers setting up around the 16th century in the Americas. There is a 2000 year gap between there and the claims made by the Book of Mormon in which archeological and historical evidence are inconsistent with such claims.
Also, these are only a select few of a myriad of claims made by the Book of Mormon which are inconsistent with the evidence such as cement, silks, chariots and wheels, rusted weapons, cimiters, language (many references are made to knowledge of Hebrew and Egyptian languages which have since been disproven), and windows.
as for animals... i don't know... i used to think llamas were horses
Actually llamas are far more closely related to camels, not horses. Just found that interesting
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