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thepyro222
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thepyro222
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I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

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vesperbot
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vesperbot
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People already make demands anyway. Haven't you heard of prayers?
These are not demands but requests. A request is: "I request this and this, but do what you see needed". A demand is "I request this and this, and I expect you to do, or else..." Many of the prayers are not requests indeed. Jesus said "Ask and you'll receive", but not "demand".
So in other words, he KNOWS who is going to never believe in him, is all powerful, aka able to do anything, and yet, sends those to hell, which is controlled by a fallen angel, who he also knew would do that, and chooses to let the devil stay, because a person created by a rib who had no knowledge of good and evil was told not to eat a fruit, even though god MADE the tree look super nice and the fruit look super yummy, and then condemned them and all of their decendents to eternal hellfire unless they did a bunch of ridiculous things, for something he could have prevented ENTIRELY in the first place, or just FORGIVEN them. That is NOT an all loving god. How you convulute your thinking to that this is a loving god, I have no idea.
Do control your passions. In fact God forgave Adam and Eve after they repented for not obeying Him.
Well he could at least make it look like a door.
Well, Jesus showed the way of life, and said that following this and Him will lead us to Heaven. Jn 10, full chapter.
You miss the point, the fact that a man of peace like Gandhi is hell bound while a pedo priest simply has to say three hail marys earns his way into heaven is, put simply, ****ed up.
I prefer to chill in hell with Gandhi then be with child molestor in heaven.
I mean, seriously, how the **** do you consider fair or just?
You just don't know what is repentance. There are many priests that go to Hell and lead others to Hell. I'm not saying that any priest who did that goes to Heaven. God uses personal approach when He judges us, and you never know who is in Hell, and why. We can only know if someone is in Heaven, it's when we ask some good person that's already dead for intercession before God, and God grants a miracle. Even then this event I called miracle has to be impossible to explain by current science, and investigated by both Church authorities and scientific authorities. AND, even then, the Church requires a second miracle as a viable proof of that person being in Heaven, after that that person is proclaimed saint.
Ah but you say the bible is the word of god, therefore, Romans 3:5-8 is simply God's propaganda and not an independent source.
What's an independent source, if one would assume God existing and Him granting the required wisdom of divine to people? <- No dodge please. If you E1337 will dodge this, then any further dialogue with you in this topic is fruitless.
0 - because God contradicts logic.
You claim that nothing illogical has zero probability to appear? In the material world it's true, but there's spiritual world that is insensible by anything material, where binary logic does not apply wholly (if at all, I can't say this for sure). People's souls belong there, but minds and words belong here.
Clearly the religions that survive will be those with the most compelling accounts of what "really" happened.
(once again) Do you mind totally demolishing the argument of Fatima's miracle happening along with visions of Virgin Mary predicting this to happen at the right time? If there will be no counter, then we can only assume that the entire set of Fatima's events is true, along with what the Virgin said to those children.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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reasonable.jpg
Even unfaked statistics can be altered to prove the contrary. Gimme crime rate, suicide rate, national debt percent, and the whole of basis on HDI assessment of rating - these are subject to employ someone's bias.
Einfach
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Einfach
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where binary logic does not apply wholly

My point is that you assume absolutely NOTHING for a binary system. It deals solely with definitions. You define what it means to imply - and you can then apply it to anything you want.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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In the 16th Century, when Martin Luther translated the bible from latin to german, he left out revelations.
Ha ha ha. Martin Luther is anathemated, and his speculations over the Bible is what caused myriads of protestant denominations to appear (along with several other factors aroused in about the same time).
Just recently God may have had a wife in the bible
"Some scholars say"??? You are the one who's throwing around scientific proofs of anything, and now you're giving an argument on anonymous? And that researcher is alone at providing this statement. Also, that Asherah she speaks of is an Akkadian goddess, and was probably indeed worshipped by Israeli at some time, though 3 Kingdoms and 4 Kingdoms state that worshipping other gods is idolatry and that's why Israeli were conquered by Babylonians and relocated there as slaves.
Not too mention the Prostant bible has 66 books
Protestants are not accounted as keepers of the Bible, since they reject a lot of Christ's words, sometimes even at random. There's no Eucharist in ANY of protestant churches, there's no confession either, the only thing that remains is the baptism, and even here people speculate about what is it for. Orthodox, however, are. And I have an orthodox Bible accessible, will verify if there are Revelations of John the Apostle.
Take the Gospel of Judas, recently found.
Sources huh?
UN pictures
I'm not requesting the result, I'm requesting the methods.
iMogwai
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iMogwai
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Even unfaked statistics can be altered to prove the contrary. Gimme crime rate, suicide rate, national debt percent, and the whole of basis on HDI assessment of rating - these are subject to employ someone's bias.


I don't think the purpose of the picture was to prove that atheism caused welfare, but that a society did not need religion to prosper, something the picture proved quite well. The picture did not say anything about it not being able to function with religion either. That's why proving the contrary would mean proving that a society needed religion to prosper, which obviously isn't the case.

Just saying you might've misunderstood his intentions.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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UN's Methodology
UN Raw Data
Interesting. HDI is a compound of life expectancy, schooling level and GNP/person in dollars. Schooling level, however, is measured strangely, not in actual education, but by time spent in education. I also don't like measuring GNP in dollars, but since there's no other way of attempting to standartize this, let it be. And also their FAQ stated that HDI is not enough to measure development. So, a nice but unconvincing statistics over here.
Gospel of Judas Courtesy of National Geographics
I don't like this being a copyrighted info, it makes that gospel to look like an extra revelation not coming from Jesus. Also I'd like to see at least some details of where this has been found as a manuscript. It could originate from someone's mind like Mormons' "Bible". There are numerous handwritten sources of all 4 Gospels of New Testament known to science.
As for Fatima, like most &quotrophecies" they are only found to be correct after the fact or are so vague, they can be applied to anything.
Which of the two? And since they have been correct, after this 93 years, what would you say about Virgin Mary being there? And Hell, as it was depicted?

And, you haven't answered my question about "independent source". Please do.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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Like if we didn't love our own mother, she would keep trying to make us love her.


Yes but our mother wouldn't torture us for eternity if we didn't love her.
Maybe he's lonely and wants to know that he is loved??


But this is a character flaw and surely an omnipotent being has the power to get rid of it.

What confuses me is how athiests do not believe in a God, correct? Yet when bad things happen in the world, there is always God right there, for you to blame. When good things happen, its just the natural order of the universe.


No when bad things happen we DON'T blame God because that is like blaming Harry Potter. What always confuses me is when chistians say god does good things when good things happen and don't blame god when bad things happen but say he moves in mysterious ways and yet none of these events require a god to make them happen.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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Is there any logic to living when you think there is no where to go after death?


Yes. We live to pass on our genes and continue the survival of our species. Is there any logic to living if you believe that you go to a wonderful place after death.
Is there any evidence to show that there were people who changed the Bible's words?


Yes, the fact that it is in English for a start.
These are not demands but requests. A request is: "I request this and this, but do what you see needed". A demand is "I request this and this, and I expect you to do, or else..." Many of the prayers are not requests indeed. Jesus said "Ask and you'll receive", but not "demand".


Yes and look what a high success rate prayers have. i think it's about 0.01%. Which would happen by chance anyway. So I think we can rephrase that to ask, demand, request or just don't say anything and the chance of something happening will stay the same.
Well, Jesus showed the way of life, and said that following this and Him will lead us to Heaven. Jn 10, full chapter.


Yes but in a book which has no credibility to people who weren't brainwashed it doesn't really look like a door.
You just don't know what is repentance. There are many priests that go to Hell and lead others to Hell. I'm not saying that any priest who did that goes to Heaven. God uses personal approach when He judges us, and you never know who is in Hell, and why. We can only know if someone is in Heaven, it's when we ask some good person that's already dead for intercession before God, and God grants a miracle. Even then this event I called miracle has to be impossible to explain by current science, and investigated by both Church authorities and scientific authorities. AND, even then, the Church requires a second miracle as a viable proof of that person being in Heaven, after that that person is proclaimed saint.


Since you are skirting around the Ghandi issue I think that you believe him to be in hell. And how can there be two "miracles" to show the priests are in heaven. For a start there needs to be verifiable eye witness accounts and Christians could lie to make their religion sound more credible. And I note you haven't said all pedophile priests go to hell either.

What's an independent source, if one would assume God existing and Him granting the required wisdom of divine to people?


An independent source is one that writes what happened not what God says happened. Because God could quite easily lie to make the bible more convincing propaganda. And what "wisdom of the divine". The wisdom that slavery and genocide are good perhaps.

You claim that nothing illogical has zero probability to appear? In the material world it's true, but there's spiritual world that is insensible by anything material, where binary logic does not apply wholly (if at all, I can't say this for sure). People's souls belong there, but minds and words belong here.


So you make something up and say logic doesn't apply so it must exist? And it's not illogical it just goes against logic. There's a big difference, illogical is unlikely. Against logic is logically impossible.

(once again) Do you mind totally demolishing the argument of Fatima's miracle happening along with visions of Virgin Mary predicting this to happen at the right time? If there will be no counter, then we can only assume that the entire set of Fatima's events is true, along with what the Virgin said to those children.


It could've been made up or an optical illusion. The story of mary appearing could've been made up after the event happened. And since there is no counter to Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Scientology, Pastafarianism and the church of the flying spaghetti mopnster I think we can assume that they are all true too.

Protestants are not accounted as keepers of the Bible, since they reject a lot of Christ's words, sometimes even at random. There's no Eucharist in ANY of protestant churches, there's no confession either, the only thing that remains is the baptism, and even here people speculate about what is it for. Orthodox, however, are. And I have an orthodox Bible accessible, will verify if there are Revelations of John the Apostle.


Sources please. I don't see why these are any more likely than your branch of Christianity. And if God's word is so definite why are there so many branches. Why didn't God just unite everyone in one big branch or Christianity.
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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Since you are skirting around the Ghandi issue I think that you believe him to be in hell. And how can there be two "miracles" to show the priests are in heaven. For a start there needs to be verifiable eye witness accounts and Christians could lie to make their religion sound more credible. And I note you haven't said all pedophile priests go to hell either.
I can't say anything valid over Ghandi, that's why I'm not mentioning him. Two miracles thing is about one certain person, like say Damien de Veuster, or like Jonah of Manchuria (though Orthodox churches require one miracle), this issue does not apply to any group of people. The eyewitnesses were there and verified the info, in both these cases. And you have missed the part of scientific investigation that is performed in any case of a proposed miracle, this negates the lart of lying. I didn't say that all pedophile priests go to Hell, indeed, I have only said that there are "many priests" that go to Hell and lead others the same way. These are not my words, though this vision is at a "non constat" by the Church's authority (a TLDR warning) I can't say who will end up in Hell, I'm only saying that those who do evil are GOING TO end up in there IF they won't stop.
I don't see why these are any more likely than your branch of Christianity.
My branch of Christianity originates at Christ's community of students, protestants originate at different times from 1400 (Hussites) to 2000+, since various protestant churches continue to disagree and split within themselves. Also, if you'd read the Bible, Jesus said "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." (Russian translation say "gates of Hell" instead of &quotowers of death", if read literally) Does any of protestant churches base on this?
And if God's word is so definite why are there so many branches. Why didn't God just unite everyone in one big branch or Christianity.
I wish. There are always people who seek power for themselves, sometimes lurking in the darkness, or hiding their intentions. This can lead both to stagnation and internal opposition. When the hidden conflict within the Church finally has to be resolved, schisms happen. You can also look here for details.
An independent source is one that writes what happened not what God says happened. Because God could quite easily lie to make the bible more convincing propaganda. And what "wisdom of the divine". The wisdom that slavery and genocide are good perhaps.
First, God cannot lie, or else that wasn't God who said that. "What happened but not what God says happened"? Can you elaborate? "Wisdom of divine" is knowledge about spiritual world, which is inaccessible from the material world.
It could've been made up or an optical illusion.
Is that a scientific demolition? No. You must try harder.
Yes but in a book which has no credibility to people who weren't brainwashed it doesn't really look like a door.
Brainwashed? ROFL.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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My branch of Christianity originates at Christ's community of students, protestants originate at different times from 1400 (Hussites) to 2000+, since various protestant churches continue to disagree and split within themselves. Also, if you'd read the Bible, Jesus said "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it." (Russian translation say "gates of Hell" instead of &quotowers of death", if read literally) Does any of protestant churches base on this?


So basically you take a book where several parts you yourself have discredited and claim that one verse is the basis of why your faith is better than all the others. And can you please explain why God allows these branches and other religions to survive. Until you stop skirting around this issue we can't continue this discussion.

First, God cannot lie, or else that wasn't God who said that. "What happened but not what God says happened"? Can you elaborate? "Wisdom of divine" is knowledge about spiritual world, which is inaccessible from the material world


So since God told people slavery was good does that mean you support slavery? And what God says happened is what God wants people to think happened, I think that you can figure out what, what happened, means. And again you are making out that because you say so God is exempt from logic. I say the Invisible Pink Unicorn is exempt from logic and therefore must exist. Please stop skirting around this issue. Until you do we can't continue this discussion.

Brainwashed? ROFL.


How is childhood indoctrination not brainwashing?

And can you please just answer me this question. Why does your God exist and the Invisible Pink Unicorn not? What reason is there for your God to exist over Allah?
Avorne
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Avorne
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What reason is there for your God to exist over Allah?


Those two are the same God y'know - Islam, Christianity and Judaism are the 3 Abrahamic religions and all share the same God.
qwerty1011
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qwerty1011
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Those two are the same God y'know - Islam, Christianity and Judaism are the 3 Abrahamic religions and all share the same God.


Ok then Krishna, Vishnu and other Hindu Gods. And they aren't the "same" god they are just based on the same god.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
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Maybe he's lonely and wants to know that he is loved??


This quote reminds me of this.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/MageGrayWolf/atheistjokes/Before-And-After.jpg

Woah! What happened? No no no. God judges based on your heart, who you are as a person. I'm very certin Gandhi is happily in heaven right now. And anybody whose shamefully abused their power as a priest isn't.


There are many even on here who don't believe that.

Is there any evidence to show that there were people who changed the Bible's words?


The existence of numerous translations, the existence of dozens of omitted gospels...

A demand is "I request this and this, and I expect you to do, or else..."


If we are to have free will why does God make demands on us?

Do control your passions. In fact God forgave Adam and Eve after they repented for not obeying Him.


When does this happen?

As for Fatima, like most &quotrophecies" they are only found to be correct after the fact or are so vague, they can be applied to anything.


Who needs prophecies, scientific theories have predictive powers.

Which of the two? And since they have been correct, after this 93 years, what would you say about Virgin Mary being there? And Hell, as it was depicted?


Someone quite aware of what the Bible depicts claiming to see these things? Clearing the Bible could not have had any influence on such visions.

First, God cannot lie, or else that wasn't God who said that.


God, the deceiver.

(KJV)
1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
Jeremiah 4:10
Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely you have greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, You shall have peace; whereas the sword reaches to the soul.
Jeremiah 20:7
O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.
Ezekiel 14:9
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
2 Thessalonians 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
vesperbot
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vesperbot
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So basically you take a book where several parts you yourself have discredited and claim that one verse is the basis of why your faith is better than all the others. And can you please explain why God allows these branches and other religions to survive. Until you stop skirting around this issue we can't continue this discussion.
ME discrediting the Bible? You should read this topic better. Why does God allow other branches to exist? Because Him coming and revealing Himself will actually be then end of time, and after that no one could ever change a thing. So He allows us to think for ourselves and find Him. By the way, there are good people in almost all of the Christian branches, and they will certainly be saved regardless of branch.
And can you please just answer me this question. Why does your God exist and the Invisible Pink Unicorn not? What reason is there for your God to exist over Allah?
Since you don't believe in miracles, you will not believe me. IPU hasn't given a single sign of its existance, while God was with Israeli people for 40 years straight, and did not leave them alone even when they have strayed. BTW, Christ resurrected. This alone is the sign of God to be real. About Allah - Mohammed took Old Testament as basis for Quran, therefore this name belongs to the very same God that is my God the Father. I'd rather stop discussing anything with you from now on, unless you will also tell me, how is mass media not brainwashing.

Krishna and stuff belong to the IPU category, there are no miracles that can prove their existance.
I did already, must have gotten buried but I said various greek and roman sources and not the jewish tribes.
Hmm. This topic grows too fast to watch for the entirety of changes. Though I often see some of my questions left unanswered as well. There should be some sources in the Babylonian cunei tables about Jews being under their reign, and there should be sources about at least Paul's case when he got beaten and then went up to Caesar to protect his beliefs. Much, though, could have gone with Nero burning ROMe. I might try a research of this, but I'm by no means a historian.
As for the Catholic church, the reason the Protestant movement occurred was them protesting the church's abuses and granting themselves powers the bible does not endorse.

The sacrament of confession is not mentioned at all in the bible for starters.
About confession - Jn 20:21-23. Explanation is as follows: Christ being God did not need the sinner to profess his sins, since He can see into one's heart. Priests can't directly see into a person's heart, so the profession of one's sins is required to absolution of them. But the priest is acting as a mediator between the confessing sinner and Jesus, who gave them power to abolish sins, and it's His grace which cleans the soul of one attending confession.

About Church abuses - yes indeed, there were abuses with indulgences and crusades at least, currently we claim these abuses as sins, though we can't say anything definite about those who committed such sins - no one is forbidden repentance.
Someone quite aware of what the Bible depicts claiming to see these things? Clearing the Bible could not have had any influence on such visions.
Dodging detected.
When does this happen?
Right before they have been cast away, that's why God promised a savior for people by that time.
The existence of numerous translations, the existence of dozens of omitted gospels...
Did people change the wordings in the canon, at least after 387 when the first solid Church-wide canon was developed? Translations can and should be reviewed of course, and anyway one can always refer to Septuagint and Latin-English dictionary. About omitted gospels - like what? Several of then are of gnostic origin, therefore false, several are altered versions of the four canonical gospels, therefore has to be reviewed (and they were, the result was that the authors made alterations themselves instead of "uncovering" Jesus's words - dispute seems to be open again), several are "infancy gospels" that were assimilated into Church tradition. I am aware that the canon was unstable in the early Church years, however all four Gospels were canon from the start.
God, the deceiver.
(KJV)
What's KJV, first? And second, neither quote from the Bible should be read as a single ripped-off statement. Say, Ezekiel 14:9 spoke about false prophets who did not receive their word from God. 2 Chronicles and 1 Kings spoke the same. Do check the context prior to posting.
HahiHa
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HahiHa
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IPU hasn't given a single sign of its existance, while God was with Israeli people for 40 years straight, and did not leave them alone even when they have strayed.

You were taught that he was with them during all this time. How do you know it's true? You can't verify it. That's a pretty poor explanation for god's existance.

Krishna and stuff belong to the IPU category, there are no miracles that can prove their existance.

I'm pretty sure those who believe in Krishna and compagny could list you a good number of miracles they witnessed. What makes yours divine and theirs not?

how is mass media not brainwashing.

It can indeed be used to brainwash, and has been already used to do so. But not all do, and it's difficult to know who you can trust and who not. In general the media's claims can be verified, or probabilised, when most of the other medias independently also state the same.
What with the bible and the church? Many branches that make unverifiable claims, often not in tune with claims of other branches of the same religion. Only problem, if you don't believe those claims, you're the bad one.

What's KJV, first?

Authorized King James Version of the bible.

And second, neither quote from the Bible should be read as a single ripped-off statement. Say, Ezekiel 14:9 spoke about false prophets who did not receive their word from God. 2 Chronicles and 1 Kings spoke the same. Do check the context prior to posting.

Mage! It's time for your context video once more
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