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HAPPY 4TH OF JULY BY THE WAY YPU GUYS!!!

Obeying implies that the subject chooses to follow those commands. If they don't choose to obey, then God has every right to destroy them.

And when did I say that?

Temptations come from your own desires. That's why I take responsibility for my actions.

He definitely did not coerce you though. In the analogy I said that he specifically told you not to go on his lawn and you did it anyway. It's also very avoidable because there are other places other than his lawn that you can step on. Step somewhere else.

Can you quote me on that please?

Check this out. If I'm really concerned about my salvation, I want to know if God has started a good work in me because they go hand in hand. When you confess your sins, you also repent meaning you turn away from your sin. That's already one indication that God is transforming you. So if I don't see any change in my life, no repentance, no worship, then I'm probably not saved. I need to repent.

No He doesn't. If He just wanted them to choose to obey, He could have made them desire obeying Him.

I don't know if you did. Please answer the question.

Okay, where do these desires come from?

Which is why it's a very poor analogy. It doesn't compare in any way. I wasn't created or designed by this guy, nor was the environment in which I was raised.

It's in the post just before that remark. You didn't use the words 'inconsequential' nor 'meaningless', those were mine. But it's basically what it would boil down to.

Which is it? Now you're saying salvation goes hand in hand with God's work in ourselves/God transforming ourselves, which is at odds with both the whole accepting Christ thing and with judging us based on our acts.

Maybe it's not that simple to just give creation desire.

Evil is, from what I understand, anything that is not good. Because God is perfectly good, I think it's safe to assume that evil is anything that goes against God's will.

If I were to say that it came from their desire to be like God, where did that desire come from? From this point, I would like to believe that it comes from the fact that God is just so frickin glorious lol. But I'm not a theologian. I'll be struggling with this question.

I see your point. I guess it comes down to the desire argument then, would you agree?

If it isn't God's job to create a desire in us to obey Him, then the analogy still stands.

Well, we're talking about a universe-shaping liminal being of supposedly infinite power and wisdom, so I fail to see how a minor modification to the reward pathways in a creature's brain could be too complex.

In that case, obedience itself must be good. Therefore, evil didn't come from disobeying Him; it was just present in the act of disobeying Him.

1 There wouldn't be any need for such a desire (it obviously doesn't make life any easier in paradise), and it doesn't follow that anything with a will of its own simply must have a desire to be like Him. If He's the one holding the blueprints to our minds' workings, it stands to reason that such a desire should be left out under these circumstances.

2 If wanting to emulate your hero (whom you exist to love and worship) is so corrupting that it forces Him to plunge your entire species into hardship and strife, maybe He should have thought ahead and designed us to be more content with what we are.

Not really, because it also isn't His job to create desires which lead us to disobey Him, nor is it His job to make rules that conflict with the desires He created.

I disagree. Our actions (as well as our intentions) matter greatly. Our sins don't matter for sure, but when we worship God, I believe that we will be rewarded in heaven. That's why my actions matter.

To be honest, now I'm confused haha. Would you care to walk me through what you're trying to say? I think it's my fault, but I would appreciate your help.

That is not what you implied when you said only accepting Christ was required to be saved.

Then we're two. As I wrote above, you seemed to imply one only needs to accept Christ to be saved. That, and the good acts thing, which you do not agree with (or do you?) imply an action from your side, God merely 'rewarding' you. But then, in the previous post, you suddenly mentioned this 'God's good work in ourselves', saying one would need to see if God was transforming themselves and that this was going hand in hand with salvation. All of a sudden it appeared as if we had no say in the matter at all, and it was actually God's work that was saving us. Which implies God and God alone chooses who will be saved and who won't based on the amount of work He puts in us. Do you see the problem?

No, I just didn't bring up the part where there are rewards in heaven.

Does that make more sense? :/

Isn't heaven itself the reward? Can you be saved without repenting and getting rewards? Would that mean heaven is a two-class system? Why is that additional incentive/hurdle, depending on how you see it, even necessary?

I, guess? More than mentioning the individual bits separately did, at least. Though I wonder what you mean by 'God chooses us' regardless of our works. Why would He choose, and based on what criteria, if the (false) choice - to accept Christ - supposedly lies with us?

But, doesn't that mean that we don't have a say in being saved after all, since we have to rely on God 'regenerating' us first? Is that what you mean by 'God chooses us'?

Yeah. That's what I mean.

It's more than reward pathways though. Why would I, being a creature under the influence of connections in my brain, choose to turn away from watching porn and wanking off when it gives me pleasure and relief from stress?

What I meant when I said that it's not that simple is that the implications of changing someones desires are not that simple. That would be limiting someones free will.

The fact that they disobeyed God, with the help of the serpent's lies I should add, is what caused their downfall. By eating the fruit, they wouldn't actually be like God as the serpent said.

1 God gave us the rules to show how absolutely righteous He is. In the case of Adam and Eve, God gave them the rule not to eat the fruit in order to give then a chose.

2 If He didn't plant those desires, why is God responsible for out actions?

But, doesn't that mean that we don't have a say in being saved after all, since we have to rely on God 'regenerating' us first? Is that what you mean by 'God chooses us'?

Yeah. That's what I mean.

Would that mean heaven is a two-class system?

It isn't about changing someone's desires. It's about designing people with the appropriate desires in the first place. If God snaps His fingers and a fully-formed human pops into existence, we should logically expect that its desires and aspirations are there because He made it that way, not because humans just always come with preexisting desires outside of His influence.

Which still places the blame squarely on God. He didn't need to let that serpent in. He didn't have to seal that knowledge away in lovely delicious fruits. He had no justifiable reason to keep that knowledge from them to begin with. He could easily have reversed the effects and forgiven them on the spot. His test was a sham that He knew they would fail. He did it all anyway.

So you're essentially doomed to eternal ****ation if God declines to do that for you?