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Forums → WEPR → Evolution, creationism and the school cirriculum

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samy
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samy
4,871 posts
Nomad

Well to start out i dont beleive in evoltuion so the fact that other things cant be taught really ticks me off but i just want to see what people think and why.

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cddm95ace
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cddm95ace
165 posts
Nomad

Where did the original matter, that evolution supposedly began off of, come from? Did it just begin to exist? Can you explain this? Without an explanation for that, the whole theory of evolution falls apart.

locoace3
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locoace3
15,053 posts
Nomad

Where did the original matter, that evolution supposedly began off of, come from? Did it just begin to exist? Can you explain this? Without an explanation for that, the whole theory of evolution falls apart.


did you even bother to read about abiogenisis from what i heard it's that even from inorganic matter if the basic amino acids for life form than you can get the beginnings of life
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

Where did the original matter, that evolution supposedly began off of, come from? Did it just begin to exist? Can you explain this? Without an explanation for that, the whole theory of evolution falls apart.


No, it doesn't. Evolution doesn't even try to explain where the matter comes from. I am growing tired of repeating myself here. If you want to actually understand reality then listen. If you want to cling to whatever belief you have that says evolution is wrong then go for it, just quite belligerently repeating the same things I and others have already explained to you.

All original matter came from... we don't know. What we do know is that matter was dense and hot, then it began to expand and cool. (Big Bang theory) Through the birth and death of stars new elements were created, and forces pulled the elements, along with other particles from the original expansion of the universe, into planets.

On one such planet early atmospheric conditions, as well as elemental make up, caused the formation of simple amino acids. These acids were capable of growing and replicating. This led to the very first cells. This is called abiogenesis.

Once abiogenesis happened THIS is where evolution first begins. Anything you discuss prior to abiogenesis has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. Nothing. You can say whatever you want about all of the conditions prior to evolution and you will never even address this scientific theory. Please try and understand that when you talk about evolution. You are parroting one of the most common mistakes that the layman makes when trying to address a scientific model, which is actually normal, because you are not a scientist and do not have an understanding of how the scientific method works.

So, if you still wish to talk about evolution, then you must discuss only events which occurred after abiogenesis, otherwise you are addressing entirely different scientific theories.
cddm95ace
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cddm95ace
165 posts
Nomad

Right, but if there was no matter there was not Big Bang, with no Big Bang there could be no abiogenesis, and with no abiogenesis there could be no evolution. My explanation is that the original matter was created by God. You can't say where the matter came from, so everything falls apart. Nothing CAN'T become something.

locoace3
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locoace3
15,053 posts
Nomad

Right, but if there was no matter there was not Big Bang, with no Big Bang there could be no abiogenesis, and with no abiogenesis there could be no evolution. My explanation is that the original matter was created by God. You can't say where the matter came from, so everything falls apart. Nothing CAN'T become something.


You can't prove that there was nothing in the first place we know there was called carbon dating and many other forms of it, and from what we found throughout our exploring in the universe wasn't him
http://www.dumb.com/god/images/god.jpg

but millenia old star systems
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

Right, but if there was no matter there was not Big Bang, with no Big Bang there could be no abiogenesis, and with no abiogenesis there could be no evolution.


Actually you are very wrong there. The big bang was not necessary for abiogenesis, and abiogenesis is not necessary for evolution. This is why these theories are not all tied together in science, they stand alone. Even if that matter originally came from God, the universe still expanded as the big bang model shows, life still formed via very simply chemistry through abiogensis, and the diversity of life on this planet still came about through evolution by natural selection.

Even if you are correct and could prove it, the only thing that you would have proven is that God made the matter that started the universe, then natural laws took over. You see, we have proof of every theory I've explained to you, and inputting God as the source of all matter still would not negate all of the evidence which proves the Big Bang cosmological model, abiogensis, or the theory of evolution.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

Sorry for DP, forgot to address this

Nothing CAN'T become something.


Actually it can. I doubt you have already, so I suggest you pick up a few scholastic works on quantum mechanics. There is no such thing as 'nothing', as even in the the spaces between quarks there are quantum particles literally popping in and out of existence, seemingly from nowhere. Something from nothing, if you will.
Freakenstein
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Freakenstein
9,504 posts
Jester

You can't say where the matter came from, so everything falls apart.


Since a fundamental law states that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, it has always been here.

Nothing CAN'T become something.


Non-living matter can become organic matter
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

Non-living matter can become organic matter


I think he was referring to the matter that existed prior to the cooling and expansion of the universe. Non-living matter becoming living matter came much, much later. In fact, the elements which make up every living thing would not have existed prior to the big bang, but were formed through nuclear fission in the early universe, when the first stars were formed and subsequently died.

Another interesting fact. Did you know that all life on earth is made up, or requires, 5 of the 6 most common elements in the universe? Now, if "Goddidit" through some miracle of magic, why would he take the time to sit up in heaven and wait billions of years for stars to form and then die so that these elements could be created?

Wouldn't it have been easier to blink them into existence? Or better yet, use whatever elements were already present? Even if God did bring into existence the matter which predates the big bang, he certainly did a poor job, because none of the elements required for life were there...
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

My explanation is that the original matter was created by God.


So your asserting that you know that God created all the matter/energy.

You can't say where the matter came from, so everything falls apart.


Then immediately after that you say we can't know where it call came from. Sorry but it seems you are being rather self refuting here.
cddm95ace
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cddm95ace
165 posts
Nomad

Even if you are correct and could prove it, the only thing that you would have proven is that God made the matter that started the universe, then natural laws took over.

Now, if we inputted (is that a word?) God in there, that means that God is real. If God is real, then wouldn't it make sense that he would affect the outcome of things? I cannot believe that something so complex as the human body, or photosynthesis, or anything else, could happen as an "accident."

Moe
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Moe
1,714 posts
Blacksmith

I cannot believe that something so complex as the human body, or photosynthesis, or anything else, could happen as an "accident."


It wasn't on accident, it was survival of the fittest.
314d1
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314d1
3,817 posts
Nomad

Now, if we inputted (is that a word?) God in there, that means that God is real. If God is real, then wouldn't it make sense that he would affect the outcome of things? I cannot believe that something so complex as the human body, or photosynthesis, or anything else, could happen as an "accident."


Your idea of god: Self creating, all powerful, utterly complex, and generally far more advanced than the human body. Using your logic, how did something as complex as YAHWEH come to being on its own?
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

Now, if we inputted (is that a word?) God in there, that means that God is real.


Again, if you can prove it, sure. We can put God there prior to the big bang. And even if you do prove God is real, you raise a plethora of other questions that must be answered. If you can prove he's real, then you have to prove what role he has in the universe, you have to prove what he wants from us, if anything, you have to prove how he came into being.

You say over and over that something cannot come from nothing, yet you believe in a deity who has no creator. That IS something from nothing, and unlike quantum mechanics, you have no evidence for your hypothesis but a moldy tome.

If God is real, then wouldn't it make sense that he would affect the outcome of things?


Nope. You see, we already know the big bang is real, we already know abiogenesis is real, and we already know that evolution is real. If God is actually affecting these things, then god is nothing more than a collection of observable laws of nature.

I cannot believe that something so complex as the human body, or photosynthesis, or anything else, could happen as an "accident."


It's not accident, it's evolution by natural selection and genetic drift. There is nothing accidental about it. If anyone thinks that evolution implies 'accident' then they clearly do not have any more than a very cursory understanding of it, if any understanding at all.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Even if God did bring into existence the matter which predates the big bang, he certainly did a poor job, because none of the elements required for life were there.


God: I created this thing called a deluxe bean burrito. I was eating these suckers for an infinity then woah, what a Big Bang! I think this will be my best miracle yet. I can get that life thing started with this!

Angel: I think you might have screwed up a bit all you have is Hydrogen and Helium.

God: Oh well I guess we will have to wait a few billion years. But for the record it was only six days, got it? I'm going to go lay down now.

Angel: And on the seventh day God rested. Got it!

I cannot believe that something so complex as the human body, or photosynthesis, or anything else, could happen as an "accident."


No one is saying it did. It also didn't start complex but started very basic.
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