Since I have joined Armorgams . . .I see a lot of Atheists and their threads about why people believe in God etc . . . I wanted to start a thread about the bible and christianity.
The purpose of this thread is to debate a different book of the bible each week. We will discuss lessons, morals, and different stories.
We will have friendly debates. Please . . . if you are atheist or of other beliefs . . . you may discuss in this thread, just PLEASE no fighting, flaming, spamming, trolling . . . etc
This week we will begin from the beginning . . . .Genesis
Not really, free will lets people do what they want, gives them freedom. But, you must obey certain rules (ten commandments) and listen to Gods will.
So you can do whatever you want, but if you don't do what you're told, you burn in Hell.
Doesn't really sound like freedom to me. I mean, if I actually believed in that stuff.. that's not even a choice. There is no choice between an eternity of torment and anything else, much less an eternity of bliss. No one would *choose* torment.
the bible says that as long as you pray to god for forgiveness,then he will accept you and you will go to heaven.so that means,even hilter could have gone to heaven as long as he prayed for forgiveness at the end. if god doesn't expect everyone who prays for forgiveness,then people who want to repent would not be able to,so as long as someone of a different religion prays to god for forgiveness at the end,the will be forgiven and go to heaven.
So you can do whatever you want, but if you don't do what you're told, you burn in Hell.
Doesn't really sound like freedom to me. I mean, if I actually believed in that stuff.. that's not even a choice. There is no choice between an eternity of torment and anything else, much less an eternity of bliss. No one would *choose* torment.
There is a saying that says "learn from your mistakes" I think that is part of the reason why we have free will. I dont know about you guys but I feel bad when I sin and it makes me want to become holier, so if I am really sorry for what i did I go to confession and try not to do it again. If we didnt have free will we would have no personality or any ability to express our opinions, actually we would only have one opinion. And also HiddenDistance, since you are denying God by choice, you are choosing eternal torment.
i agree with jj,i feel like,when i commit a sin,i try not to do it agian and confess,i even made a room to do it(dont ask y,i just dont use my bedroom anymore so...)and yea he is choosing eternal pain.
There is a saying that says "learn from your mistakes" I think that is part of the reason why we have free will. I dont know about you guys but I feel bad when I sin and it makes me want to become holier, so if I am really sorry for what i did I go to confession and try not to do it again.
That's the thing though. There are a lot of things that the church considers a sin... that aren't necessarily bad things. Sure, killing people isn't good, but if two consenting adults want to have sex, I don't see anything wrong with that. There's only something wrong with it because the church says there's something wrong with it.
If we didnt have free will we would have no personality or any ability to express our opinions, actually we would only have one opinion. And also HiddenDistance, since you are denying God by choice, you are choosing eternal torment.
Technically I'm not *choosing* eternal torment because I'm not a believer - so since I don't acknowledge the existence of god or hell, none of those things are real in my books. There's no choice. I'm saying that if you are truly believe you will go to hell if you are bad, wicked or evil, there is no choice to be made, and this concept of free will is completely false.
Doesn't really sound like freedom to me. I mean, if I actually believed in that stuff.. that's not even a choice. There is no choice between an eternity of torment and anything else, much less an eternity of bliss. No one would *choose* torment.
God's rules and laws and commandments are guidelines for how to live if you want to go to heaven. Free will is the choice to do what you want, and the be what you want. if you choose do do the wrong thing, you are choosing hell. If you choose to do the right thing, you are choosing to go to heaven. we don't have to follow his rules, but it is basically mandatory to TRY to follow them if you decide heaven is where you want to be after you die.
the bible says that as long as you pray to god for forgiveness,then he will accept you and you will go to heaven.so that means,even hilter could have gone to heaven as long as he prayed for forgiveness at the end. if god doesn't expect everyone who prays for forgiveness,then people who want to repent would not be able to,so as long as someone of a different religion prays to god for forgiveness at the end,the will be forgiven and go to heaven.
...well once again, praying doesn't quite cut it. He would have to mean it. he would have to admit and believe that what he did was horribly wrong. if someone that lived a horrible life, wanted to go to heaven and merely said aloud:
"I confess that Christ is my savior and I plead forgiveness for everything I have done!"
It doesn't mean anything. They might as well have said:
"I confess that horses can fly!"
If someone were to pray forgiveness, it would need to be for the right reasons. Not for getting into heaven, but because they were truly sorry for what they had done. It's one of those things where you need to speak with your heart, not your mouth.
hidden distance,the churches only say the having sex is bad if you are not fully married with the person.
*blinks twice* Yeah, I know that. I don't consider consensual sex between two adults inherintly 'bad' regardless of their marital status.
God's rules and laws and commandments are guidelines for how to live if you want to go to heaven. Free will is the choice to do what you want, and the be what you want. if you choose do do the wrong thing, you are choosing hell. If you choose to do the right thing, you are choosing to go to heaven. we don't have to follow his rules, but it is basically mandatory to TRY to follow them if you decide heaven is where you want to be after you die.
It would be different if you got into Heaven if you followed god's commandments & you just ceased to exist or went to some kind of limbo when you died if you don't follow his edicts - but making that going in the other direction means eternal torment doesn't make it much of a choice. It's like when I said on the last page about the rapist telling a girl that he won't kill her if she does what he wants willingly - it's totally up to the girl, she has the free will to decide, but it's not much of a decision.
Additionally, all that stuff they talk about god being forgiving and loving everyone is just BS. Just because a person doesn't follow your set of rules of their own volition, for which there is no rational evidence; not only do you kick them out of the club, but you punish them with eternal suffering? Excuse the language, but what a dick. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
i kno that,tank,the person would have to mean it,to be sorry for what they have done. p.s. i found it funny when i read "he may as well have said 'i confess that horses can fly!'" =P
That's the thing though. There are a lot of things that the church considers a sin... that aren't necessarily bad things. Sure, killing people isn't good, but if two consenting adults want to have sex, I don't see anything wrong with that. There's only something wrong with it because the church says there's something wrong with it.
oh for goodness' sake! people!
Sex is not a bad thing! It was God's idea!
It's how we've twisted his idea, and perverted it that makes it a bad thing. Sex is supposed to be something that occurs between a man and a woman that are truly in love with each other and partners for life(aka ALREADY MARRIED!). What we have turned it into is something that can be done at anytime with anyone. That is what the church says is wrong. That is what God says is wrong. That is what IS wrong
Technically I'm not *choosing* eternal torment because I'm not a believer - so since I don't acknowledge the existence of god or hell, none of those things are real in my books. There's no choice. I'm saying that if you are truly believe you will go to hell if you are bad, wicked or evil, there is no choice to be made, and this concept of free will is completely false.
by choosing to do wrong you are indirectly choosing hell over heaven and vice versa.
According to you & the church. I don't share that belief.
by choosing to do wrong you are indirectly choosing hell over heaven and vice versa.
I don't have these rules that you do, so I don't see them as 'wrong'.
I also find it irritating that you guys are ignoring my analogy of the rape victim. Actually, if she does go along willingly that's a sin - as it's sex outside of marriage that she would be participating in willingly, and that would be a sin on her part.
It would be different if you got into Heaven if you followed god's commandments & you just ceased to exist or went to some kind of limbo when you died if you don't follow his edicts - but making that going in the other direction means eternal torment doesn't make it much of a choice. It's like when I said on the last page about the rapist telling a girl that he won't kill her if she does what he wants willingly - it's totally up to the girl, she has the free will to decide, but it's not much of a decision.
You miss the point. you don't have the choice of heaven or hell, God does. He will judge you based on what you did on Earth. What you do on Earth is totally up to you. that's what his idea of free will is. You have the freedom to decide how you live your life, then God decides whether it was right or wrong...And isn't that essentially the same system we have? You live your life...if you commit a crime, or get accused of a crime, you are put on trial and judged. If you are judged innocent, you released into the world to live your life again(if you are innocent by God, you are released into heaven). If you are judged guilty, you may get time, or life in prison, as well as the possible death sentence(if you are guilty by God, you are sent to hell). It's our choice on how we live our life. we get years and years of our choosing, then God makes one choice: Heaven or Hell.
Additionally, all that stuff they talk about god being forgiving and loving everyone is just BS. Just because a person doesn't follow your set of rules of their own volition, for which there is no rational evidence; not only do you kick them out of the club, but you punish them with eternal suffering? Excuse the language, but what a ****. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
This is the part where people need to realize that there is the devil as well as God. If a person is evil or living wrong they are easily overcome by the devil. it's not so much God choosing to send someone to heaven, as the Devil having more control over them.
You miss the point. you don't have the choice of heaven or hell, God does. He will judge you based on what you did on Earth. What you do on Earth is totally up to you. that's what his idea of free will is. You have the freedom to decide how you live your life, then God decides whether it was right or wrong...And isn't that essentially the same system we have? You live your life...if you commit a crime, or get accused of a crime, you are put on trial and judged. If you are judged innocent, you released into the world to live your life again(if you are innocent by God, you are released into heaven). If you are judged guilty, you may get time, or life in prison, as well as the possible death sentence(if you are guilty by God, you are sent to hell). It's our choice on how we live our life. we get years and years of our choosing, then God makes one choice: Heaven or Hell.
It's not the same. *We* decide what those laws are, we decide what makes our society - our rules, the things we teach & how we want to live. Not every democratic country does it the same either. They all have laws & rules that the people living there decide on.
God, on the other hand is a celestial dictator who made up the rules and unless you follow them, you'll be punished. That sounds like something closer to Nazi Germany then Canada, or the U.S.A., or Great Britain, or Germany today. You'll forgive me if I don't find that 'freedom'. And it's not just punishment for a little while, like a few years - or even death; no, it's a punishment worse then death - eternity of suffering and torment. An *eternity*? That's just vicious and malevolent.
yes,she should say no and then die,for saying no to a sin,when she dies,she might get into heaven.
According to you & the church. I don't share that belief.
According to myself, the church, AND GOD. you don't believe in him, but i do.
Should she just say no & then die?
*sigh* bro, you do not make this easy, do you. I'm going to tell you she should say no and be killed. Then God will welcome her with open arms for saying no. She would have died doing what is right and nothing is more noble in the eyes of God.
just please, please, PLEASE! respond with an intelligent reply unlike anything to the effect of: but what if there is no God? She would've died for nothing!
