Since I have joined Armorgams . . .I see a lot of Atheists and their threads about why people believe in God etc . . . I wanted to start a thread about the bible and christianity.
The purpose of this thread is to debate a different book of the bible each week. We will discuss lessons, morals, and different stories.
We will have friendly debates. Please . . . if you are atheist or of other beliefs . . . you may discuss in this thread, just PLEASE no fighting, flaming, spamming, trolling . . . etc
This week we will begin from the beginning . . . .Genesis
Then why did god commit genocide in the Noah's Ark story, or lay down the ten commandments? These things go in direct contrast to free will. I can go on and on with things God has done in your holy book that directly effect free will.
See this is why its hard to try and reason with extremist athiests.. All you ppl can posibly see is the facts... Which is what science is about... Athiesm isn't a belief, cuz belief involves faith, not fact.
Anyways to help you figure these things out I figure i might as well try and tell you (like 50 others tried to) why you are completely wrong.. (not like its gonna help cuz athiests seem to be stuborn like h'll on there own "scientific facts".
The genicide stories are completely fictional, just like most older stories in the bible. Adam and Eve, noahs arc, etc... To think these were based upon real ideas are next to complete idiocracy. (but maybe if you smoke some weed you see into the easiest of metaphors you so blindly missed). The whole genocides are based completely on telling a moral story. They are to help us understand our own religion, and try to guide us in the right directions. (try is a key word, as well as right direction. See it doesn't always happen cuz then our free will takes over; and we do the exact opposite half the time...)
As for these ten commandments... These are purely based rules for us to try and follow. They are proper descriptions on how to be sanitary and not become barbaric. But of course, with free will we can go directly against that. In fact alot of christians do. If god hadn't given us free will, well none of these 10 commandments would be broken... Nor would there have been any of those genocides you so franctly like to keep talking about.
Facts are the retardation of belief, and needs to gtfo of a religious forum.
Is a child getting cancer, or a deer burning to death in the forest some kind of judgment? If God has the power and the will to stop these atrocities (and any theist in their right mind would have to claim He does) then why doesn't he stop them? Is there some greater good to be achieved through human suffering?
I have a few theories regarding this subject, actually. I don't claim to have chosen to necessarily believe this, but I like to consider possibilities. As human beings, we have physical limitations. We can't fly, we can't change our form, we can't directly affect the spiritual world (assuming there is one). But we have absolutely no limitations on thought. We can consider endless possibilities, and there is nothing we can't consider; no matter how perfect or flawed, we can think anything we want. With God (or a god), I would presume it to be the opposite. God can do anything physical, and have a direct effect on anything in the natural and unnatural world. But since God is ultimately good, he has to be a certain way; all his decisions and interferences with free will have to go one way. I would call these moral limitations rather than physical. I know it's hard to picture, but imagine we couldn't make just any decision or believe or think anything. That's an awesome power. Now, assuming there is a god, proving this god's power over us motivates us to do good, but not for the sake of good; for the sake of saving ourselves. By leaving traces that reveal himself, this god would eliminate our moral motivation. Therefore, this is not for the greater good of our souls; therefore, a god with moral restrictions could not do this.
This is just a theory, and may or may not be correct. I happen to ponder a lot of the same questions about God, and it makes a lot of sense to me. If I didn't explain it well, I'm sorry, but hopefully I did.
This then brings up the problem of evil. Is a child getting cancer, or a deer burning to death in the forest some kind of judgment? If God has the power and the will to stop these atrocities (and any theist in their right mind would have to claim He does) then why doesn't he stop them? Is there some greater good to be achieved through human suffering? Perhaps it was necessary for that child to die, but did it really have to suffer for as long as it did?
That's one of the hardest questions any theist should have to answer, and I know a lot of people who have fallen out because of it. Still, I'll try to give my thoughts on the question.
There's a story about two men talking. One of them says, "When I die the first thing I'd like to ask God why he allows poverty, famine, and injustice when he could do something about it." The other guy says, "I'm afraid God would ask me the same question."
If we go back to the fall, we should remember that by introducing evil to the world, everything was affected by evil. Things became imperfect because through evil, death came to the world as a result of God's judgment. While there is still evil, we will be mortal, in order to fulfill judgment (because of original sin). However, God is also capable of turning evil for good purpose. We learn through limiting ourselves or even causing pain unto ourselves. Similarly, God confronted the depths of evil and used evil to procure salvation for all.
My answer is a bit simple, as I'm short on time, but for more information I hope an extensive previous discussion on the subject proves to be informative.
God certainly could have just mindswiped us and kept us in Eden and reset everything the way that it was before, but he wouldn't because he is in fact, all-good and just. Man sinned, and consequently God had no choice but to judge, because he is all-good. He cannot turn a blind eye; he must give judgment. If he was to ignore it, he would violate his own goodness by doing so. Same thing with the Flood.
Wait a second, your saying he's all good because he caused suffering and mass genocide?
We must remember, though, that God has formed a new covenant with us through Jesus Christ. God loves all of humanity, and he wishes that "all men may come to salvation" because it is the best possible outcome. Because he loved man, the creation in his own image, he sent Jesus to die and to be resurrected as a historical fact so that all men can believe and come to know and accept the ultimate good.
Is this new covenant the reason he allows such horrible things to accrue today?
See this is why its hard to try and reason with extremist athiests.. All you ppl can posibly see is the facts... Which is what science is about... Athiesm isn't a belief, cuz belief involves faith, not fact.
Darn those atheists and there facts. If they didn't have those pesky facts we could call what ever we like true.
The genicide stories are completely fictional, just like most older stories in the bible. Adam and Eve, noahs arc, etc... To think these were based upon real ideas are next to complete idiocracy.
Well first off I'm not the one claim these things are real. These are things out of your own Biblical texts. If these sorts of things never happened then what did Jesus die for if Adam and Eve is just a myth? So does this mean the events with Jesus is also just a story?
A second problem arises with this as well. If some of the stuff is fact and some if fiction how do you make the distinction without facts, belief? As I have said before I could hold up a blue pen and believe it's red all I like, it's not going to make it true.
As for these ten commandments... These are purely based rules for us to try and follow. They are proper descriptions on how to be sanitary and not become barbaric.
I've seen better from religion.
Facts are the retardation of belief, and needs to gtfo of a religious forum.
This one makes me laugh. Do you actually hear what your saying? Things that are based in reality have no place in religion and should gtfo. Well I can certainly agree with the first half of that. But I'm not going to gtfo.
Or were you saying that belief in Christianity can't stand in the face of facts. I can agree with this as well, that's why I'm an atheist. The religion made no sense.
This is just a theory, and may or may not be correct. I happen to ponder a lot of the same questions about God, and it makes a lot of sense to me. If I didn't explain it well, I'm sorry, but hopefully I did.
You know I would do that as well, heck I still do. I then compare these thoughts to reality to see how well they hold up.
God can do anything physical, and have a direct effect on anything in the natural and unnatural world. But since God is ultimately good, he has to be a certain way; all his decisions and interferences with free will have to go one way. I would call these moral limitations rather than physical.
Ohhh, I really like this response, at least with regard to this particular question. My worry is that this response forces the theist into a notion of God that in not purely omnipotent, but is rather subject to a higher morality. Now, it's no problem if God is limited by logical possibilities. So he can't make a square circle - big friggin' deal! But having God subject to moral restrictions does seem to be a severe limit on His omnipotence - one that I'm not sure the theist would willingly accept. It also calls into question biblical stories like where Abraham was commanded to kill his son Isaac (I think that's their names...). In cases like this (and there are plenty others) it would seem that God is violating some moral principle. I wonder if this can be addressed and still reconcile your answer to the problem with things the theist (and specifically Christian theist) would be willing to accept.
I think your answer, Parsat, while perhaps extremely satisfying to the theist, might not address the specific area of concern here. Your answer takes a sort of universal look at suffering and more or less concludes that God has done what He can without affecting human free will. But I don't see how snuffing out the life of a suffering child who would die just a few seconds later would affect free will. And this is certainly an action for which we would praise God. If I saw something suffering, I feel like I would do what I can to help it. This seems to me to be a moral imperative and must be assessed both in specific instances and as a generalization.
This theory I have probably wouldn't sit too well with the average theist. But if there is a god, I know there has to be a lot of things we don't know about him. Omnipotence, in our sense of the word, may be like someone feeding their dog every day. Following this theory, I think that God could do anything that I would be inclined to imagine, but going into realms I do not understand, presumeably the unnatural world (if it exists), there may well be many restrictions.
I think there are ways in which this theory could fit well with the Bible. For example, with Abraham and Isaac, God was obligated by these restrictions to tell Abraham not to kill Isaac, but he could still test his faith.
Also, since I know this may be a concern, God and Jesus did reveal miracles to people in the past, but I think the principle of modern apathy wouldn't apply to a time where people accepted religion without proof, and converted without cause. Back then, I think there had to be a means to start the chain of believers; even if it wasn't necessary for everyone to believe in Jesus, the idea of forgiveness was quite limited. I think his purpose may not have necessarily been to have the entire world turn Christian, but (besides cleansing our sins) to start a new idea, and a better look at the culture back then.
This one makes me laugh. Do you actually hear what your saying? Things that are based in reality have no place in religion and should gtfo. Well I can certainly agree with the first half of that. But I'm not going to gtfo. Or were you saying that belief in Christianity can't stand in the face of facts. I can agree with this as well, that's why I'm an atheist. The religion made no sense.
no like actually... these f'ckin athiests and their facts... its like obama with his "change".. To understand a religion you need belief and faith. And stop with all this fact BS... All you think of is facts, and congratulations on having a way of life that only entitles you to only believe in facts and no idea of dreams or god or anything above your so called "life"...
And to start taking what im saying and screwing it around in your head... sry bud but unless your me dont try to even reword my sentences...
The reason im saying gtfo is because your all about fact, you have no belief and therefore you can't take anything we say serious. All you care about is facts, and after that its all wish wash bs to u. This is why every person who has a religion hates having to put up with you extreme athiests, because u are completely biased and think that what every other religion has to say is something retarded. So really this a forum meant for christians, so yeah please stop posting all your supposed "facts" here and gtfo. Every person who is a christian, jew, mormon, or what ever religion actually thinks something is messed up in your head for trying to discredit there religions and shoving your athiest views down there throats.
o right sry... i guess a flamed a bit.. well please mention this in your other posts =)
The use of supporting evidence these horrid facts you seem to hate so much is how we distinguish reality from fantasy.
Every person who is a christian, jew, mormon, or what ever religion actually thinks something is messed up in your head for trying to discredit there religions and shoving your athiest views down there throats.
You can think that if you like. Tell you what, stop trying to put creationism int he classrooms, take "in god we trust" off the US money, remove "under god" from the pledge, abolish religiously motivated laws from the law books, make it so an atheist has equal chance of being appointed into office as someone who holds a belief in a religion. Get rid of the things that religion shoves down my throat on a daily basis, and I will leave.
To understand a religion you need belief and faith. And stop with all this fact BS... All you think of is facts, and congratulations on having a way of life that only entitles you to only believe in facts and no idea of dreams or god or anything above your so called "life"...
Sorry to but in, but then again, that's sort of my job. Theists in all sectors do rely on faith, you're absolutely right. And they have certain beliefs. But any theist would maintain that their beliefs are justified. I think what Mage is getting at is that in a purely faith-based system, then is little justification for these beliefs. Again, any theist would agree with this. There are certain things within that system that are acceptable to believe purely on the basis of faith. But you have to show that the system itself is justified. I can make up a system of beliefs right now that is justified within its own system, but since the system itself is based on nothing in the actual world, my beliefs would be unjustified, and thus irrational. The theist must use facts about the external world to justify his or her belief system, if not the specific beliefs within that system. This is why there are teleological and cosmological arguments around that try to get this justification. By ignoring the relevance of facts to your beliefs, you're undermining the doctrine of your beliefs, i.e. Christianity (I assume).
Wait a second, your saying he's all good because he caused suffering and mass genocide?
I would appreciate if you didn't put words into my mouth. First of all, I don't believe God can be said to have committed "mass genocide." If God is the creator of life in all forms, he has the ability and the right to take it away. Humans have no such right because it is not their creation, and that is where we derive the fact that murder and genocide are inherent evils. Secondly, God does not cause people suffering. If anything, God took on suffering himself and created the means to the end. Which leads us to...
Is this new covenant the reason he allows such horrible things to accrue today?
It certainly doesn't give you reason to insert red herrings meant to inflame me into losing my head. Rather, the new covenant gives us reason to bear a temporary state of evil until the judgment has passed.
Wait a second, your saying he's all good because he caused suffering and mass genocide?
I would appreciate if you didn't put words into my mouth. First of all, I don't believe God can be said to have committed "mass genocide."
Yeah, I wonder what motives statements like that. Even if God did directly, deliberately, and with furious anger bring about the death of many people, it can in no way be classified as "genocide".
And while I can see the red herring fallacy, it looks more like a fallacy of complex question to me tee hee
You can think that if you like. Tell you what, stop trying to put creationism int he classrooms, take "in god we trust" off the US money, remove "under god" from the pledge
When you go to a public school, most of the time they don't have this. As for the other stuff, well i dont live in america, but thats more based upon your founding fathers. Who believed devotely in God. But i do understand how it can make you feel like its going against your religion and singling you out (which is no right).
But again the point im trying to make is that religions are based solely off of faith. Sure there can be many stories (like in the bible) showing how God and Jesus and the holy spirit are relevant in your life every day. But to trust these stories, and believe full heartedly that this all is true requires alot of faith. (again im trying not to be harsh or anything... trying not to offend anyone this time).. But with athiesm its purely based on the fact of life. Its based on proven scientific facts. You believe that when you dioe your body will become one with the earth... Which is exactly what will happen, everyone knows we decompose... But with Catholicsm we believe in something (i find way greater at least) that allows us to have eternal happiness..
As for this religion stuff, its not meant be fully factitous... Not even close. Its meant to be a way to live life, and love everyone around you without becoming a bad person. Its a bunch of laws that your religion sets to make sure you follow laws in society, and follow the "good" in life. What athiests have wrong in this, is that religions aren't supposed to be made up of facts... Its meant to be about faith...
Now mage said that you can say a pen is blue but it actually is red... and no matter what you do that pen will still be red... Well its more like this. You don't get to see the pen. You have no idea what it looks like, or what colour it is. But someone tells you its red, and then a community of people tells you its red. Making you trust and have faith that it is a red pen, and then there are stories and etc etc... (kinda makes it sound retarded but atm its the only analogy i can think of haha)... Anyways thats kinda like what christianty (and most religions) are like... But with a God of course.
Your looking at it wrong, God isn't the same as us, the best analogy I can come up with is if we created a bunch of metal robots then destroyed all of them would that be genocide? To the robots (Saying they could think) But to us I'm fairly sure we wouldn't think so because we created it so we can destroy it...
