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almostsilver
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almostsilver
48 posts
Nomad

It is my opinion that they should be able to do anything that straight people can do. The fact that we are restricting them from getting married reminds me to much of the restrictions we placed upon women and blacks which most people would agree were terrible. I would also like to point out that I am not gay, I just believe in the freedom of the people.
Feel free to post the opposing side of this as always.

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ulimitedpower
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ulimitedpower
1,739 posts
Nomad

I'm very impressed with the way this discussion has gone. If only more of society thought this way, we'd live in a happier place.


... lol

that is probably why the government hasn't made much progress on the issue.


People always think that science rules over religion, but this topic is a great example against it: Pretty much the only reason homosexuals are still sort of frowned upon in society is because people feel it goes against human nature (Or their religion). But seeing as it is now scientifically proven that being gay or straight is in your genes/DNA/brain/biological nature, the only reason some do not see them as equal is because of what the Bible says.

Sometimes religion is like a stubborn old person: Life would go easier for everyone if they just gave in, but noooooo, they have to fight for their own opinion (Which in a sense is OK, except...), even though all facts pretty much point against them.

I realize what I just said can be endlessly debated.
First of all, they HAVE to use illogical notions to support an illogical claim


It is illogical depending on what side your on. If your a solid Roman Catholic, and believe every word of the Bible, most of the stuff makes perfect sense.
They will say things like, "A child should have a mother AND a father."

Oh..ok. So, all those single parents out there cannot produce a healthy, well-rounded adult. Or all of those children that grow up in orphanages, etc. I just could go on, and on.


It sounds like they make up a lot while typing, without going back to cover questionable statements.

My opinion...

Duh, as a more science believer, I have nothing wrong with homosexuals, or gay marriages. The responsibility lies with the parents, and I wish I could give it to the kid if they got one, but he's probably too long...

I don't want to rant endlessly. Most people are tooooooooo........
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

People always think that science rules over religion, but this topic is a great example against it:


Actually this is a great example of how science DOES trump religion. The primary argument against same sex marriage is from a theistic perspective, and the reasons cited are that it is a sin, it is unnatural, and it is a personal choice.

Firstly, let's just toss sin out off the bat as it's irrelevant. There is no place for personal religious beliefs as a basis for law, which is what is being done with the ban on same sex marriage. There is no legitimate factual basis for any of the claims being made by opponents of same sex marriage.

Now, on to science. We have numerous examples of homosexuality as being very natural. It occurs in many different species, from very simple reptiles all the way up to many mammals, humans included. Now, it doesn't seem to me like God created homosexual animals, and that's fine, but for humans it demands a death sentence. (Which is what the Bible claims.)

Secondly we already recognize that many lesser species lack a brain capable of higher thought, pursing personal desires, or most complex choices. Therefor if these animals show an obvious same sex gender preference then we can conclude with great confidence that it is not a matter of choice but of instinct. And, as it is a matter of natural instinct it cannot be immoral, or unnatural. (Which means that it cannot be a sin either.)

It is illogical depending on what side your on. If your a solid Roman Catholic, and believe every word of the Bible, most of the stuff makes perfect sense.


You cannot say that religion makes ANY logical sense. There is not one thing about any theistic faith or ideal that has any foundation in logic. And no matter how thoroughly you believe in something, it does not mean that it must, by your belief, be logical. That simple fact aside, I was not referring to religion in general, but the Protected Marriage Act specifically and solely. But thanks for taking my comment out of context.
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

Brain in this case not being the whole wiring, right? Since not all gays are feminine and not all lesbians are butch...
Also, sadface over all the various studies going on in places apparently usually exclude bisexuals.


If this is indeed the cause it does account for the whole spectrum some will get more hormones and some will get less. So it can result in heterosexuality, bisexuality, homosexuality, and anything in between. Also keep in mind this physical development from hormones has no baring on physical development from hormones later in life as the person hits puberty.
Yes more research does need to be done but the evidence so far is pretty compelling.

Not necessarily that, but it is suggested that our gender preferences are primarily instinctual. It is not yet proven whether this is purely a genetic trait or not, but there is a lot of evidence to show that it is in fact embedded in our genomes.


What I'm talking about is call epigenetics so the genes could be the same but how they are expressed is different.

National Geographic explains the biology of homosexuality

I had a better video on it that got into more detail and had more recent information but I can't find it right now. I know I posted it around here some place.
It seems to be rather hard to find this research online, when I try looking I usually come across loads of religious sites screaming how homosexuality is a sin and so on.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

when I try looking I usually come across loads of religious sites screaming how homosexuality is a sin and so on.


Yeah I have that same issue. I have to sift through probably 10-20 pages of search material to find one or two decent, scientifically based sites as opposed to religious sites offering ways to convert the homosexuals in your life, how to save them from hell, why it's immoral, and so on.
daxflame44
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daxflame44
151 posts
Nomad

As long as they don't get all homo with me rock on with your gay self

Fishboy01
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Fishboy01
10 posts
Nomad

My policy is they can do what ever they want. All they have to do is not change who I am or force me to do anything. As long as that happens then it's all good to me.

JoshFrench
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JoshFrench
26 posts
Nomad

whats so bad about gays getting married?

ulimitedpower
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ulimitedpower
1,739 posts
Nomad

You cannot say that religion makes ANY logical sense. There is not one thing about any theistic faith or ideal that has any foundation in logic.


I find you very one sided. Ironically, I am supporting you in the fact science trumps religion.

I could argue that with 'what is logic' and 'what are the true foundations of mankind if not religion'. Very picky topics...
Actually this is a great example of how science DOES trump religion. The primary argument against same sex marriage is from a theistic perspective, and the reasons cited are that it is a sin, it is unnatural, and it is a personal choice.


One-sided. If science trumped over religion in this debate, why hasn't too much happened yet?
Therefor if these animals show an obvious same sex gender preference then we can conclude with great confidence that it is not a matter of choice but of instinct. And, as it is a matter of natural instinct it cannot be immoral, or unnatural. (Which means that it cannot be a sin either.)


True, I was shocked when I saw that the number of stray dogs having intercourse with the same gender is surprisingly high (aka you see it often on the street). That might not count as homosexuality.
And no matter how thoroughly you believe in something, it does not mean that it must, by your belief, be logical.


It may be logical to you. People have different logics.
thanks for taking my comment out of context.


Are you angry?
whats so bad about gays getting married?


That's what we're discussing.
All they have to do is not change who I am or force me to do anything.


Yet that's exactly what quite a few straight people are trying to do: Convert or eradicate homosexuals, or at least their ability to marry. Do you think that's fair.

Endless debate..........
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

I find you very one sided. Ironically, I am supporting you in the fact science trumps religion.


Yes, I am one sided. I support the side that has factual, demonstrable evidence to support its claim, not the one mired in myths and magic. Sorry, I'm just logical that way.

And how is it that you can say that religious dogma has any basis in logic? I care not which side you support, and it doesn't matter which side I support.

Logic is defined as the study of reasoning. Reasoning as a process takes proposed explanations for considering, contrasting, or fitting them together in order to determine which beliefs, actions or attitudes are the best.

So, knowing what logic is, and what reasoning is, which part of religious dogma holds up to consideration, scrutiny, examination, and the application of logic?

I have yet to find someone that can honestly say, knowing what logic and reasoning are, that religion is logical. I grew up in a religious household, my family was very religious, many still are, and some even have degrees in theology, and yet I have yet to find someone that claims theistic faith as logical. Therefore the reasoning for my post.

One-sided. If science trumped over religion in this debate, why hasn't too much happened yet?


Because it's surprisingly difficult to use a logical and factual argument to supplant someone from an idea that is decidedly illogical and has no factual, demonstrable basis. Just as there are still religious people who believe that the universe is only 6,000 years old, based on Biblical calculations. Or that Noah's flood caused the craters on the moon. And yes, there are still those that believe the Earth is the center of the universe, and that the sun and the rest of our galaxy orbit us. Why is that? Because a book told them so. That is why not much has happened yet in this debate.

True, I was shocked when I saw that the number of stray dogs having intercourse with the same gender is surprisingly high (aka you see it often on the street). That might not count as homosexuality.


And how is that not homosexuality? Homosexuality is having intercourse, and usually a preference, for members of the same sex. Well now... 2 boy dogs having sex... nope, that's not homosexuality, but if it's 2 boy humans then by golly that IS and they are going to hell!!! (/sarcasm)

It may be logical to you. People have different logics.


There is no different logic. Either something is logical, based on the demonstrable evidence, or it is illogical. People don't have different logic, however some apply it improperly to arrive at a conclusion that they desire, instead of applying it appropriately to arrive at a true conclusion. Again, sorry, but I'd rather know I have the right answer and have to admit that my previous conceptions were incorrect, rather than hold on to those conceptions and live in falsehood.
Sarthra21
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Sarthra21
1,078 posts
Nomad

Homosexuality has been proven in the genes. To deny a gay couple to be married is like denying a black couple to be married. Simple as that. Homophobes need to learn these facts and live with them.

Zophia
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Zophia
9,434 posts
Scribe

It seems to me that much of that isn't specifically pheromones though. I say this because the majority of pheromones released are rarely, if ever, perceptible as scents in and of themselves, and much of the recognition goes on at a subconscious level.
Yeah, I didn't say it was pheromone based, just scent based. Wasn't I commenting on something about how scents are mostly useless to humans? Was sleepy.

And how is that not homosexuality? Homosexuality is having intercourse, and usually a preference, for members of the same sex. Well now... 2 boy dogs having sex... nope, that's not homosexuality, but if it's 2 boy humans then by golly that IS and they are going to hell!!! (/sarcasm)
Sarcasm and such aside, doing what could be considered a 'homosexual act' doesn't necessarily mean you're gay.

... I am still way off topic. *rolls away from the religious side of the debate*

Homosexuality has been proven in the genes. To deny a gay couple to be married is like denying a black couple to be married. Simple as that. Homophobes need to learn these facts and live with them.
Sexual preference does not equal race.
balerion07
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balerion07
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Peasant

The Human Genome is not fully understood and it won't be for centuries if ever. The science behind such &quotroof" is just one of the many pseudosciences that still exist throughout the world to this day.

Phrenology anyone??? I'd love to feel your head to see how smart you are.

MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
4,005 posts
Shepherd

Yeah, I didn't say it was pheromone based, just scent based. Wasn't I commenting on something about how scents are mostly useless to humans? Was sleepy.


Yeah actually now that I go back it seems you were. I was sleepy too :P

Sarcasm and such aside, doing what could be considered a 'homosexual act' doesn't necessarily mean you're gay.


While this is true, and true homosexuality denotes a true preference, not just a commission of the act, the debate has a theistic twist, which I take into account in my replies. The example given aside, which does not denote true homosexuality in and of itself, there are actually true homosexual animals all throughout the animal kingdom and across many species, as well as truly bisexual animals, mainly monkeys, and especially the bonobo, whose sexual behavior most closely matches that of humans. (they even masturbate too!)

One of the most fascinating is Cnemidophorus uniparens. This is an asexually reproducing lizard which consists solely of a female population. Now, asexual reproduction is fascinating in and of itself, but the fact that these lizards MUST engage in sexual mating rituals in order to reproduce is even more so. Seems God must be a man, he made an all female species which has to have lesbian intercourse to procreate. Kind of hot if you ask me XD

Sexual preference does not equal race.


Fully agreed. However I think the reference here is that a ban on same sex marriage is bigoted, in much the way the ban on black marriages was not too many years ago in the US. If people did not discriminate based on sexual preference then there would be no debate and homosexuals would be recognized in all aspects of the law just as heterosexuals are.

The fact that there is still legalized bigotry in my country, regardless of the target of that bigotry, disturbs and shames me greatly.
MRWalker82
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MRWalker82
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Shepherd

The science behind such &quotroof" is just one of the many pseudosciences that still exist throughout the world to this day.


Yep, biology, chemistry, biochemistry, anatomy, (just to name a few of those being used today) they are just pseudosciences, as you so eloquently put it. They aren't real science. In a few years we'll have tossed them aside like phrenology (which was abandoned as a science almost 100 years ago, when emerging evidence disproved it.)
/sarcasm
MageGrayWolf
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MageGrayWolf
9,462 posts
Farmer

As long as they don't get all homo with me rock on with your gay self


Hey sometimes it works to your advantage. I use to get free pizza at the mall all the time because one of the guys there took a liking to me.
Never led him on to think I was gay or anything, guess he just thought I was hot.

My policy is they can do what ever they want. All they have to do is not change who I am or force me to do anything. As long as that happens then it's all good to me.


I'm sure they can agree to that. I think we should return that favor.

The Human Genome is not fully understood and it won't be for centuries if ever. The science behind such &quotroof" is just one of the many pseudosciences that still exist throughout the world to this day.


Darn those scientists, always using pseudosciences that lead to developments like the computer and internet.
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