This is not about whether or not he was the son of God but whether he actually existed.Most atheists agree that he did live but there are some who don't so what are you're thoughts?
Well, to give you a desensitized bible school answer, you can see God all around you, in the earth and through people. But can you see God through murderers and rapists? No, because they do not let the god part of them show.
If God is all the nice stuff in the world how can I possibly hate him? Though that doe seem contrary to how he is portrayed in most of the Bible.
If you would ever change your mind, you would go to heaven, or probably purgatory. Hell is only for those who would never accept God, no matter how much suffering they endure.
Then it's not eternal is it?
We are made in God's image, however not so much to be 'top dog' as much as to be stewards of the earth.
You mean it doesn't state we are to rule over the creatures around or or something to that effect then?
We don't necessarily need to 'hate' ourselves, but understand that we are imperfect and in need of salvation.
Oh, so we are just suppose to say sorry for being human then?
If God is all the nice stuff in the world how can I possibly hate him? Though that doe seem contrary to how he is portrayed in most of the Bible.
I don't know; I have a particular problem understanding cruel/arrogant people.
Then it's not eternal is it?
Again not following you there.
You mean it doesn't state we are to rule over the creatures around or or something to that effect then?
Well by rule, 'government' is implied. And as Locke said, the purpose of government is to look out for the welfare of the governed.
Oh, so we are just suppose to say sorry for being human then?
No, because it was original sin that made us, for a lack of a better word, 'impure'. God doesn't need us to apologize for being human, because he loves us all the same. That's why he gave us reconciliation and penance.
If you can just change your mind and get out of it then it's not eternal.
Well by rule, 'government' is implied. And as Locke said, the purpose of government is to look out for the welfare of the governed.
Which would again put us as top dogs.
No, because it was original sin that made us, for a lack of a better word, 'impure'. God doesn't need us to apologize for being human, because he loves us all the same. That's why he gave us reconciliation and penance.
gaining knowledge bad, impure. If God is fine the way we are then there is no need for reconciliation or penance. If we are to be doing reconciliation and penance for our sins which are mostly just human nature this still goes back to having to be sorry for being human.
If you can just change your mind and get out of it then it's not eternal.
You can't change your mind once you've chosen, if that's what you mean.
Which would again put us as top dogs.
I guess when I saw top dogs I thought you were using a more negative context.
If God is fine the way we are then there is no need for reconciliation or penance.
He is fine the way we are, but not fine with the way we act sometimes. What I meant was that we can still sin and be forgiven; I should have said that.
If we are to be doing reconciliation and penance for our sins which are mostly just human nature this still goes back to having to be sorry for being human.
Hmm. That has my philosophizing cap on. (It doesn't fit that well :P)
i remembered as soon as i posted... then i went to sleep and am now responding. i am not deist. i am not atheist. Saying absolute statements about religion and atheism don't ever make any headway here on wepr. I try to acknowledge as much of the uncertainty that i can so as to curb as much of that as i can.
Saying absolute statements about religion and atheism don't ever make any headway here on wepr. I try to acknowledge as much of the uncertainty that i can so as to curb as much of that as i can.
I'm glad someone else realizes this, as we've often found when two intelligent people are on opposing sides the debate doesn't move. Instead of simply arguing whether or not religion is correct it might be more beneficial to discuss the philosophical, social, and psychological impacts religion has had as well as its place in society.
I think one of the major points that i've always thought true was that we, as creatures (creatures made by a divine hand in my opinion), have been given free will. there are always logic errors when dealing with faiths of religions but I think the whole free will thing was stressed pretty heavily in mine. personally i don't believe in fate or destiny. I can't explain why an omniscent being would punish someone who was "destined" to be bad (if destiny does in fact exist). the destiny i'm talking about is the predetermined kind... not the hindsight of "well... that was my destiny"... that's just saying..."well what happened happened..." its not talking about a predetermined action.
if God is real, then maybe he is omniscent, and knows every move we will ever make in this game of life. but if he's all-knowing like people say... then maybe he is all powerful like people say as well. maybe he presents scenarios in life where people have to make decisions of "right" and "wrong" actions. It wouldn't make sense for him to be all powerful and to also be unable to truly give people the decision to choose which paths they will follow in life. sounds like a paradox... but wouldn't an all powerful entity be able to do that? O__o
It wouldn't make sense for him to be all powerful and to also be unable to truly give people the decision to choose which paths they will follow in life. sounds like a paradox... but wouldn't an all powerful entity be able to do that?
This is a hard concept. I don't know if I believe in destiny, but God works outside of time. God knows what your choice will be, before you make it, but it is still your choice. He did give us the power to choose, for right or wrong. He just knows the outcome. Time does not exist to God.
maybe it is a possibility that he knows what you're going to do in life... and u'll do it unless he interferes and presents a choice that gives you the right to choose your own fate... its somewhat of a conundrum and paradox... but then again wouldn't an "all-powerful" being have that power? ... i know that was redundant.
This is a hard concept. I don't know if I believe in destiny, but God works outside of time. God knows what your choice will be, before you make it, but it is still your choice. He did give us the power to choose, for right or wrong. He just knows the outcome. Time does not exist to God.
eh... I used to think something like this, but now I think differently:
My basic thought is that God put us here to help him be happy. He made the universe, but that's just a bunch of energy (matter is energy; sorry, physics digression) strictly governed by rules, and thus he knew the final outcome of it all, which isn't interesting at all. He therefore created man, and gave him something more than rules: free will. Gave people the power to choose what they would do. I think that God does not know what we will do; though he can put the choices in our way, and guess as to the outcome, he can never know what we will choose until we choose it. And it's for this reason that he loves us, us being an eternal source of joy to him.
Also, I think we have a part of Him in us. For how else could we act without being governed by rules?
You can't change your mind once you've chosen, if that's what you mean.
This contradicts what you said earlier. This also put's it back to the unjust system of having something eternal for something finite. I get the distinct impression your not really comprehending eternity here.
He is fine the way we are, but not fine with the way we act sometimes. What I meant was that we can still sin and be forgiven; I should have said that.
Yes and many of those behaviors are based on human nature, thus going back to what I said.
I think that God does not know what we will do; though he can put the choices in our way, and guess as to the outcome, he can never know what we will choose until we choose it. And it's for this reason that he loves us, us being an eternal source of joy to him.
This actually makes the most sense. No destiny and omniscience is contradictory, and there would be no point in creating anything in an omniscient state since all outcomes would be known. The only way any of it could make sense is that God is not omniscient.
For how else could we act without being governed by rules?
We are limited by physics so to that extent we are governed by rules. In terms of decision making i.e. free will this get's into a whole other conversation that has already stemmed into it's own thread, so I don't want to stir that up to much here. I will say I do think we are capable of free will. If we were created by a deity that is omnipotent then it would stand to reason that being could make us with such an ability without needing to resorting to inserting bits of himself.
This contradicts what you said earlier. This also put's it back to the unjust system of having something eternal for something finite. I get the distinct impression your not really comprehending eternity here.
When you die you either go to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory. Then you stay there for eternity. What am I not articulating?
As far as human nature goes, we don't have to apologize for being human, and that's about all I have to say about it. I don't quite know where that aspect of the comversation was going anyways.
