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thepyro222

2,150 posts

Peasant

Posted March 29, '11 5:11am UTC

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.
I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

I grew up atheist for 16 years. I had always kept an open mind towards religion, but never really felt a need to believe in it. My sister started going to a Wednesday night children's program at a church. Eventually, I was dragged into a Christmas Eve service. Scoffing, I reluctantly went, assuming that this was going to be a load of crap, but when I went, I felt something. Something that I've never felt before. I felt a sense of empowerment and a sense of calling. Jesus called upon my soul, just like he did with his disciples. he wanted me to follow him. Now, my life is being lived for Christ. He died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of everyone who believes in him. He was beaten, brutalized, struck with a whip 39 times, made to carry a cross up to the stage of his death. This I believe to be true, and I can never repay him for what he has done.\r\n     I still have my struggles with Christianity, but I've found this bit of information most useful. Religion is not comprehensible in the human mind, because we cannot comprehend the idea of a perfect and supreme being, a God, but we can believe it in our heart, and that's the idea of faith. Faith is, even though everything rides against me believing in Jesus, I still believe in him because I know that it's true in my heart. I invite my fellow Brothers and sisters of the LORD to talk about how Jesus has helped you in your life. No atheists and no insults please

4,668 Replies

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Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted March 18, '12 12:57am UTC

There was suppossed to be someone who doesn't sin be sacrificed.

Why? Why could an all powerful, all loving, all knowing God not have effected the same ending without sacrificing an innocent?

Really, I can only think of 4 options.

1) God just wanted to sacrifice something

2) God doesn't really love people and likes to make things bloody.

3) God is an insane tyrannical dictator

4) (my personal favorite) he doesn't exist and that the story is made up 2000 years ago and thus will have holes in the story or disagreeing parts.

Jesus did it of his own accord.

Not
the
point!

The fact that a sacrifice took place at all when other options were available is barbaric.

In the past, if a man steals he gets stoned to death. It's not torture it's meant to kill the person for his misdeeds.

It's still a fallacy in that he is either not punished or the ultimate punishment is inflicted. There's such things called "compromise" and "middle-ground."

[quote]There was suppossed to be someone who doesn't sin be sacrificed.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy? Why could an all powerful, all loving, all knowing God not have effected the same ending without sacrificing an innocent?\r\n\r\nReally, I can only think of 4 options.\r\n\r\n1) God just wanted to sacrifice something\r\n\r\n2) God doesn't really love people and likes to make things bloody.\r\n\r\n3) God is an insane tyrannical dictator\r\n\r\n4) (my personal favorite) he doesn't exist and that the story is made up 2000 years ago and thus will have holes in the story or disagreeing parts.\r\n\r\n[quote]Jesus did it of his own accord.[/quote]\r\n\r\nNot\r\nthe\r\npoint!\r\n\r\nThe fact that a sacrifice took place at all when other options were available is barbaric. \r\n\r\n[quote]In the past, if a man steals he gets stoned to death. It's not torture it's meant to kill the person for his misdeeds.[/quote]\r\n\r\nIt's still a fallacy in that he is either not punished or the ultimate punishment is inflicted. There's such things called "compromise" and "middle-ground."

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314d1

3,817 posts

Nomad

Posted March 18, '12 1:02am UTC

He is omnipotent. God can do anything; stated another way, God has the ability to do anything. There is a difference between can and will. God will not ignore sin.

Why not?

If he can do anything, that means he can ignore sin without needing to kill his own son. Why wouldn't he? He could make them holy without having to kill anything, since he can do anything. He can ignore sin, or eliminate it, without harm being done to anyone. Why would he not?

Where did you get that idea? Only those who have accept Jesus as Savior will not go to Hell.

So all the people born before Jesus where doomed from the start?

No, not when that person voluntarily laid down His life [temporarily.]

Do you believe the people who drank poisonous cool-aid where good people? The sacrificed themselves, willingly. They believed it would be temporary. Does that make it Ok?

And then, if his "Sacrifice" was temporary, then what is being sacrificed exactly? Should a sacrifice be forever?

[quote]He is omnipotent. God can do anything; stated another way, God has the ability to do anything. There is a difference between can and will. God will not ignore sin.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhy not? \r\n\r\nIf he can do anything, that means he can ignore sin without needing to kill his own son. Why wouldn't he? He could make them holy without having to kill anything, since he can do anything. He can ignore sin, or eliminate it, without harm being done to anyone. Why would he not?\r\n\r\n[quote]Where did you get that idea? Only those who have accept Jesus as Savior will not go to Hell.[/quote]\r\n\r\nSo all the people born before Jesus where doomed from the start?\r\n\r\n[quote]No, not when that person voluntarily laid down His life [temporarily.][/quote]\r\n\r\nDo you believe the people who drank poisonous cool-aid where good people? The sacrificed themselves, willingly. They believed it would be temporary. Does that make it Ok?\r\n\r\nAnd then, if his "Sacrifice" was temporary, then what is being sacrificed exactly? Should a sacrifice be forever?

offline

Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted March 18, '12 1:03am UTC

This is responding to my point how?

You're arguing that God is omnipotent, but punishes us because sin requires punishment.

HOWEVER, this method of punishment is what I'm saying is tyrannical/barbaric.

For a finite sin, we are eternally punished?
For the sins of our fathers we are punished?
For exercising free will we are punished?

In God's sight, that person is covered by Christ's blood, and God no longer sees that person's sins. What God does not see, does not exist.

Great. Now tell me where you pulled this from, because I suspect it came out of a back pocket if you see what I'm getting at.

Only those who have accept Jesus as Savior will not go to Hell.

I said it was basically the same thing. Of course there will be differences.

Which leads back to questions previously asked: What of those who have never heard of Jesus Christ?

What of those unable to believe in him?

What of those who die before they are born, or old enough to have a belief?

And don't just give me some answer, you need to back it up.

No, not when that person voluntarily laid down His life [temporarily.]

You're still missing the point. WHY was death/torture/bleeding/pain required at all?

[quote]This is responding to my point how?[/quote]\r\n\r\nYou're arguing that God is omnipotent, but punishes us because sin requires punishment.\r\n\r\nHOWEVER, this method of punishment is what I'm saying is tyrannical/barbaric.\r\n\r\nFor a finite sin, we are eternally punished?\r\nFor the sins of our fathers we are punished?\r\nFor exercising free will we are punished?\r\n\r\n [quote]In God's sight, that person is covered by Christ's blood, and God no longer sees that person's sins. What God does not see, does not exist.[/quote]\r\n\r\nGreat. Now tell me where you pulled this from, because I suspect it came out of a back pocket if you see what I'm getting at.\r\n\r\n[quote]Only those who have accept Jesus as Savior will not go to Hell.[/quote]\r\n\r\nI said it was basically the same thing. Of course there will be differences. \r\n\r\nWhich leads back to questions previously asked: What of those who have never heard of Jesus Christ? \r\n\r\nWhat of those unable to believe in him?\r\n\r\nWhat of those who die before they are born, or old enough to have a belief?\r\n\r\nAnd don't just give me some answer, you need to back it up.\r\n\r\n[quote]No, not when that person voluntarily laid down His life [temporarily.][/quote]\r\n\r\nYou're still missing the point. WHY was death/torture/bleeding/pain required at all?

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pkprince78

25 posts

Nomad

Posted March 18, '12 1:08am UTC

Please visit: http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/

Be honest.
Have you ever lied?

Have you ever stole?

Have you ever desired to have something that was not yours?

Have ever lusted after a woman? This is adultry.

Did you know that all these thing are all against the law?

Did you know that the sentence for doing any of these things is death? Not physical death but spiritual.

If you have done any of those things you have broken the Ten Commandments(Godâs Commandments).

Now knowing that do you think that you will go to heaven or hell when you die?

Say you are in court and you are have been charged with ****(adultry), theft, and scamming people(lying). Do you think that the judge will let you go?

Adultry, lust, envy, lying, stealing, coveting,ect. All this is sin my friend, and sin leads to eternity in hell(spiritual death or second death).

But there is HOPE. God sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for YOUR sins and MY sins and rose again the third day. He took the penalty for YOUR sins and MY sins. All you have to do is believe in Him. Believe that He died for YOU and ask Him to forgive you.

If your honest and know your a sinner then you need Jesus. Say your in a plane about to crash and Jesus is your parachute wouldnât you put Him on?

Please visit: http://raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/\r\n\r\nBe honest.\r\nHave you ever lied?\r\n\r\nHave you ever stole?\r\n\r\nHave you ever desired to have something that was not yours?\r\n\r\nHave ever lusted after a woman? This is adultry.\r\n\r\nDid you know that all these thing are all against the law?\r\n\r\nDid you know that the sentence for doing any of these things is death? Not physical death but spiritual.\r\n\r\nIf you have done any of those things you have broken the Ten Commandments(Godâ��s Commandments).\r\n\r\nNow knowing that do you think that you will go to heaven or hell when you die?\r\n\r\nSay you are in court and you are have been charged with ****(adultry), theft, and scamming people(lying). Do you think that the judge will let you go?\r\n\r\nAdultry, lust, envy, lying, stealing, coveting,ect. All this is sin my friend, and sin leads to eternity in hell(spiritual death or second death).\r\n\r\nBut there is HOPE. God sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for YOUR sins and MY sins and rose again the third day. He took the penalty for YOUR sins and MY sins. All you have to do is believe in Him. Believe that He died for YOU and ask Him to forgive you.\r\n\r\nIf your honest and know your a sinner then you need Jesus. Say your in a plane about to crash and Jesus is your parachute wouldnâ��t you put Him on?

offline

Kasic

5,552 posts

Jester

Posted March 18, '12 1:14am UTC

Have you ever lied?

Yes. Never with intent to harm anyone though.

Have you ever stole?

No.

Have you ever desired to have something that was not yours?

Yes, in a way. I've wanted things that I didn't have. I didn't desire to take it from them though.

Have ever lusted after a woman? This is adultry.

Fail. Adultery is having sex with another partner than the one you are married to, not lust.

Did you know that all these thing are all against the law?

Did you know they're not? Lying and Adultery are not against the law (although consequences can come from both)

Did you know that the sentence for doing any of these things is death? Not physical death but spiritual.

Did you know that this is a baseless claim and thus has no weight behind it?

Now knowing that do you think that you will go to heaven or hell when you die?

Neither, since they don't exist.

Say you are in court and you are have been charged with ****(adultry),

Fail. Again. **** isn't adultery (necessarily anyways)

scamming people(lying).

Again, fail. Lying doesn't always equal scamming.

All this is sin my friend, and sin leads to eternity in hell(spiritual death or second death).

Yay for another baseless claim!

your

What about my honest?

Btw, I think you meant you're.

Jesus is your parachute wouldnÃ¢ï¿½ï¿½t you put Him on?

Isn't this homosexuality?

[quote]Have you ever lied?[/quote]\r\n\r\nYes. Never with intent to harm anyone though.\r\n\r\n[quote]Have you ever stole?[/quote]\r\n\r\nNo.\r\n\r\n[quote]Have you ever desired to have something that was not yours?[/quote]\r\n\r\nYes, in a way. I've wanted things that I didn't have. I didn't desire to take it from them though.\r\n\r\n[quote]Have ever lusted after a woman? This is adultry.[/quote]\r\n\r\nFail. Adultery is having sex with another partner than the one you are married to, not lust.\r\n\r\n[quote]Did you know that all these thing are all against the law?[/quote]\r\n\r\nDid you know they're not? Lying and Adultery are not against the law (although consequences can come from both)\r\n\r\n[quote]Did you know that the sentence for doing any of these things is death? Not physical death but spiritual.[/quote]\r\n\r\nDid you know that this is a baseless claim and thus has no weight behind it?\r\n\r\n[quote]Now knowing that do you think that you will go to heaven or hell when you die?[/quote]\r\n\r\nNeither, since they don't exist.\r\n\r\n[quote]Say you are in court and you are have been charged with ****(adultry),[/quote]\r\n\r\nFail. Again. **** isn't adultery (necessarily anyways)\r\n\r\n[quote]scamming people(lying). [/quote]\r\n\r\nAgain, fail. Lying doesn't always equal scamming.\r\n\r\n[quote] All this is sin my friend, and sin leads to eternity in hell(spiritual death or second death).[/quote]\r\n\r\nYay for another baseless claim!\r\n\r\n[quote] your[/quote]\r\n\r\nWhat about my honest?\r\n\r\nBtw, I think you meant you're.\r\n\r\n[quote]Jesus is your parachute wouldnÃ¢ï¿½ï¿½t you put Him on?[/quote]\r\n\r\nIsn't this homosexuality?

offline

Freakenstein

9,504 posts

Jester

Posted March 18, '12 1:21am UTC

Have you ever lied?

Would you lie to save your best friend's life when a convicted criminal walks in and requests for your friend's attention?

Have you ever stole?

Would you steal food to save your life or to save another's when they are severely famished and you have none of your own?

Have you ever desired to have something that was not yours?

Would you desire food, water, and a place to keep your head dry if you had none?

Have ever lusted after a woman? This is adultry.

See Kasic.

There are always hidden silver linings to illegalities.

Did you know that all these thing are all against the law?

And yet everyone does this, including Christians. Some, however, think whisking it away with a prayer for forgiveness will absolve them of their crimes. How will they learn if something petty blocks their view?

offline

314d1

3,817 posts

Nomad

Posted March 18, '12 1:23am UTC

Have you ever lied?

I think so?

Have you ever stole?

One time, when I was like five and was yet to understand the value of money, I took a piece of gum from from a store that my mom said I couldn't have. It set off the alarm, I gave it back, and learned what stealing was. What is the point?

Have you ever desired to have something that was not yours?

Your a capitalist. What the hell do you think? If I did not, I would have starved for not desiring to buy food that I did not own.

Have ever lusted after a woman? This is adultry.

All the time. Wait, thinking a women is buetiful is adultery? I don't even have a wife...

Did you know that all these thing are all against the law?

? What nation do you live in?
Lying is something politicians are famous for.
Stealing is against the law. Good job.
Wanting something that is not your is the base of capitalism. I can't imagine this being against the law.
Cop: Nice sports car, isn't it?
You: Yes... Wouldn't that be nice to have?
Cop: AHA! Busted. You can't want something that is yours! Away, to prison!

I am pretty sure lust is not just within the law, but a past time.

Did you know that the sentence for doing any of these things is death? Not physical death but spiritual.

Wait, what? I want my lawyer!

If you have done any of those things you have broken the Ten Commandments(GodÃ¢ï¿½ï¿½s Commandments).

Yes, but those are in the OT. And if Christianity has taught me anything, it is to ignore the OT.

Now knowing that do you think that you will go to heaven or hell when you die?

Actually no. I don't think I am going to heaven or hell once I die.

Say you are in court and you are have been charged with ****(adultry), theft, and scamming people(lying). Do you think that the judge will let you go?

Unless the judge is completly insane....

"I see here it says you liked that girl in high school... HOW DARE YOU RAPIST! BURN IN THE PRISON CELL! And look here. It seems that you told your little brother that there was not a dead cat on the road, when there totally was! Prison! And then you told that guy that you "Did his mom", which is lying AND lusting! Hell for you! And not to mention being a CAPITALIST! How dare you desire something!"

Adultry, lust, envy, lying, stealing, coveting,ect. All this is sin my friend, and sin leads to eternity in hell(spiritual death or second death).

Isn't that a little extreme? The death penalty for minor things? "Excuse me, judge, this little kid tried to steal an X-box..."
"STONE HIM! STONE HIM IMMEDIATELY!"

But there is HOPE. God sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for YOUR sins and MY sins and rose again the third day. He took the penalty for YOUR sins and MY sins. All you have to do is believe in Him. Believe that He died for YOU and ask Him to forgive you.

Wait, he killed his son? This judge is insane! This Him fello seems like he should have left what horrible country he was in and came over here...

If your honest and know your a sinner then you need Jesus. Say your in a plane about to crash and Jesus is your parachute wouldnÃ¢ï¿½ï¿½t you put Him on?

Wait, I deserve to go to hell because I lied once?

You sound like you live in a horrible despotism. Come over here to America, you will see that our laws are much better. You don't get murdered for shoplifting, we don't kill people's soals, and we usually don't kill our own children.

[quote]Have you ever lied?[/quote]\r\n\r\nI think so?\r\n\r\n[quote]Have you ever stole?[/quote]\r\n\r\nOne time, when I was like five and was yet to understand the value of money, I took a piece of gum from from a store that my mom said I couldn't have. It set off the alarm, I gave it back, and learned what stealing was. What is the point?\r\n\r\n[quote]Have you ever desired to have something that was not yours?[/quote]\r\n\r\nYour a capitalist. What the hell do you think? If I did not, I would have starved for not desiring to buy food that I did not own.\r\n\r\n[quote]Have ever lusted after a woman? This is adultry.[/quote]\r\n\r\nAll the time. Wait, thinking a women is buetiful is adultery? I don't even have a wife...\r\n\r\n[quote]Did you know that all these thing are all against the law?[/quote]\r\n\r\n? What nation do you live in?\r\nLying is something politicians are famous for. \r\nStealing is against the law. Good job.\r\nWanting something that is not your is the base of capitalism. I can't imagine this being against the law. \r\nCop: Nice sports car, isn't it?\r\nYou: Yes... Wouldn't that be nice to have?\r\nCop: AHA! Busted. You can't want something that is yours! Away, to prison!\r\n\r\nI am pretty sure lust is not just within the law, but a past time. \r\n\r\n[quote]Did you know that the sentence for doing any of these things is death? Not physical death but spiritual.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWait, what? I want my lawyer!\r\n\r\n[quote]If you have done any of those things you have broken the Ten Commandments(GodÃ¢ï¿½ï¿½s Commandments).[/quote]\r\n\r\nYes, but those are in the OT. And if Christianity has taught me anything, it is to ignore the OT.\r\n\r\n[quote]Now knowing that do you think that you will go to heaven or hell when you die?[/quote]\r\n\r\nActually no. I don't think I am going to heaven or hell once I die.\r\n\r\n[quote]Say you are in court and you are have been charged with ****(adultry), theft, and scamming people(lying). Do you think that the judge will let you go?[/quote]\r\n\r\nUnless the judge is completly insane....\r\n\r\n"I see here it says you liked that girl in high school... HOW DARE YOU RAPIST! BURN IN THE PRISON CELL! And look here. It seems that you told your little brother that there was not a dead cat on the road, when there totally was! Prison! And then you told that guy that you "Did his mom", which is lying AND lusting! Hell for you! And not to mention being a CAPITALIST! How dare you desire something!"\r\n\r\n[quote]Adultry, lust, envy, lying, stealing, coveting,ect. All this is sin my friend, and sin leads to eternity in hell(spiritual death or second death).[/quote]\r\n\r\nIsn't that a little extreme? The death penalty for minor things? "Excuse me, judge, this little kid tried to steal an X-box..."\r\n"STONE HIM! STONE HIM IMMEDIATELY!"\r\n\r\n[quote]But there is HOPE. God sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for YOUR sins and MY sins and rose again the third day. He took the penalty for YOUR sins and MY sins. All you have to do is believe in Him. Believe that He died for YOU and ask Him to forgive you.[/quote]\r\n\r\nWait, he killed his son? This judge is insane! This Him fello seems like he should have left what horrible country he was in and came over here...\r\n\r\n[quote]If your honest and know your a sinner then you need Jesus. Say your in a plane about to crash and Jesus is your parachute wouldnÃ¢ï¿½ï¿½t you put Him on?[/quote]\r\n\r\nWait, I deserve to go to hell because I lied once? \r\n\r\nYou sound like you live in a horrible despotism. Come over here to America, you will see that our laws are much better. You don't get murdered for shoplifting, we don't kill people's soals, and we usually don't kill our own children.

offline

Jake297

306 posts

Shepherd

Posted March 18, '12 1:42am UTC

All the time. Wait, thinking a women is buetiful is adultery? I don't even have a wife...

For once we agree. Thinking a woman is beautiful is not adultery.

offline

Jake297

306 posts

Shepherd

Posted March 18, '12 1:44am UTC

Wait, I deserve to go to hell because I lied once?

You catch on fast. God will allow no sin whatsoever into heaven. If you so much as commit one sin, you go to hell for eternity.

offline

Freakenstein

9,504 posts

Jester

Posted March 18, '12 1:45am UTC

You catch on fast. God will allow no sin whatsoever into heaven. If you so much as commit one sin, you go to hell for eternity.

He better lock himself away fast.

offline

Jake297

306 posts

Shepherd

Posted March 18, '12 1:45am UTC

Addend to my previous post, there is one way to get into heaven. Commit as much sin as you want, but if you ask Jesus to come into your heart and cleanse your sins, you will go to heaven.

offline

Avorne

3,085 posts

Nomad

Posted March 18, '12 1:46am UTC

Ah, Ray Comfort, I thought I'd seen the last of him a long while back. Anyway, here's what Rationalwiki has to say about him.

Anyway, his whole 'are you a good person' argument relies upon the idea that God exists, which kind of defeats the point when the argument is supposed to serve as proof of God and the need to turn to Him.

offline

Jake297

306 posts

Shepherd

Posted March 18, '12 1:47am UTC

He better lock himself away fast.

And that pertains to my post, how?

offline

Freakenstein

9,504 posts

Jester

Posted March 18, '12 1:48am UTC

And that pertains to my post, how?

God tells us to not sin, but sins himself. Look 'round yonder posts for tidbits relating to how God sins.

offline

314d1

3,817 posts

Nomad

Posted March 18, '12 1:49am UTC

Addend to my previous post, there is one way to get into heaven. Commit as much sin as you want, but if you ask Jesus to come into your heart and cleanse your sins, you will go to heaven.

Wait, what happens to mentally ill people who can't sin?

Lets say I have a son. I don't want this son to go to hell, so I preform brain surgery on him that turns him into an unthinking turnip, who is unable to commit any sin. Does that mean he will still go to hell?

Wait, so god sees murder an equal crime to lies? And genocide of a Christian better than a lie of an atheist? Murdering a million is apparently better than the lust of a Jew?

In logical courts, the punishment fits the crime. Why does god only have one punishment?

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