The Following Are Opinions Expressed By Esordereno-http://armorgames.com/user/Esordereno
Question being asked:Is "camping" aka "spawn killing" an acceptable thing, or an intolerable act? (good or bad?/right or wrong?)
Camping.
Aka Spawn killing.
Here on "http://armorgames.com/play/4264/colony" It is known as base pinning.
Essentially it is killing your enemy as soon as they spawn giving no chance for backlash.
Throughout the history of gaming, Camping Has been a large part of multiplayer game play. In some games, knowing the location of spawn points can get you a lot of win/kills/points by way of spawn killing.
But, due to the fact that spawn killing takes no skill and minimal effort and essentially nullifies the competitive aspect of gaming, it has long been outlawed amongst respectable gamers.
It has become an act associated with "newbs" (or newbies) and inexperienced ones since, usually, spawn killing is the only way they can attain any sort of victory.
It is a desperate maneuver often applied by ones knowing they are out ranked/out lvled and have little chance of success if they are play "head to head." Consider it to be the "low blow" of gaming.. As low as one can go without it being considered cheating.
The reason i speak of this topic is this:
At "http://armorgames.com/play/4264/colony" there is a great division when playing multiplayer between those with "skill" and those with.. well.. none.. o.o .. and amongst those with "skill", there is a greatly disturbing habit that has infected the community. The habit of (can ya guess?) Camping.
Though, they call it "inning" it is essentially spawn killing. Placing units in just the right position so that anytime the enemy makes any units, they instantly die.
It is disturbing because: They find absolutely nothing wrong with it.
Upon realizing how prevalent and accepted this act was, i was dumbfounded, really. I fancy myself to be an experienced gamer and video game addict since the age of 5 when i first played "duck hunt", and never have i beheld such a grand disgrace to the art of gaming than this: the acceptance, tolerance, and praising of Camping.
My opinion of camping: It is pointless and ruins gameplay. This is a game where camping is acceptable: Whoever gets the first kill/win is the winner automatically because now that they have one kill, anytime the other person tries to spawn, they will be instantly defeated. Those who support camping or "base pinning" actually have said to me "well thats why you have to fight for the pin", essentially saying, when you send out your first few units, which ever sides units win this initial battle deserves to be the winner.
If every game were to be played this way, nearly 90% of the games, units, strategies, and buildings in Colony would be obsolete because they take too long or cost too much or simply are not fast enough making them no good for pinning. Somehow, i do not think this is what the games creator had in mind when he created this intricate, well balanced game.
Well..
After much discussion and disagreement between myself and those who would defend this action, I am curious to know what you, the people, have to say about this.
So, if you would please, tell me what you think of camping/spawn killing/pinning. Is it acceptable and Is it "strategy" worthy of respectable gamers, or is it simply a "noob" act and beneath us?
I know Raze 2 will need to change the way people/items/guns spawn because everyone will just camp out in Multiplayer just to get the easy win.
But is it really so difficult for people to have the integrity to say "what i am doing is kind of wrong.. maybe i should just avoid doing it so the game is actually fun and competitive" xD?
I mean, (other than stats) what do you get out of that kind of gameplay?
I understand maybe it is fun and kool a few times.. but eventually don't you just, in a sense, "get over it?"
But is it really so difficult for people to have the integrity to say "what i am doing is kind of wrong.. maybe i should just avoid doing it so the game is actually fun and competitive" xD?
I mean, (other than stats) what do you get out of that kind of gameplay?
I understand maybe it is fun and kool a few times.. but eventually don't you just, in a sense, "get over it?"
It's like the same thing with hackers: they hack games so they can get their rank up easily. But instead with camping, and seeing as how camping (probably) won't be against the rules, people will do it for a rank. Just. Look. At. The. Hackers. Problem revolved. Can we get this useless argument over with? This guy doesn't know a thing about other people's minds...
I believe there are two sides to spawn killing. On one side, the one being killed feels like it is unfair and on the other side, the one who is getting the kill simply marks it as another kill on their spree without thinking twice.
So both feel different.
It's impractical for the one being killed to call it unfair because if they are given the opportunity, they would take the shot also.
So unless the game developers make a change in the system, then my opinion is that we should go on without any hard feelings. Kill or be killed...
o.0 uh.. what are you being so nasty for? You presume to know what i know from me asking a question? o.0 ..a question you answered.. and Xhead didn't say exactly what you said.. and it isn't like he said you were wrong so why would you get upset about that.. xD
It's impractical for the one being killed to call it unfair because if they are given the opportunity, they would take the shot also.
But I would not do the same thing and do not. And if my teammate does, i do not support them, because i think it is genuinely a pretty messed up thing to do.. unless you do it jokingly, playing around in a mean-friendly manner, that is different from doing it to strangers just to cause them distress and to gain stats.
Kill or be killed...
Just. Look. At. The. Hackers. Problem revolved.
Forgive me, for i always find it difficult, no matter how many times it happens, to accept the fact that people see clearly as i do all the things going on around them, and yet they proceed to make the kinds of inconsiderate and foolish choices that they do. It upsets me even more because i feel that i take the hard road alone while they take the easy road together. Hmph. You would think with so much togetherness they could do anything they wanted--united.. and what do they choose to do? Well.. exactly what they think they want. o_o By all means, that should not blow my mind, but it does.
I was speaking with Soymasteryos on colony yesterday asking him why he (and others) so often seem to prefer speaking about people who do not even play the game anymore rather than talking about the people who do.. and why they seem to prefer to reflect on games and moments and memories passed rather than play a game in the present and to make memories now--while you still can. And he says to me the same thing i have heard on sooooo many other games.. that things were different "back then".. better.. the people were better.. the games were better.. the styles were better.. better better better.. Hmph. Well, if things were really so great then.. what is to stop them from being that good now? Do we not have that power, that authority to act in the manner people "used" to apparently act? If you had a "good thing", tell me, why did you ever let it go? and is it really gone now? or maybe you do not even want it back.. maybe you just want to look back and to be able to say "i had a good thing once".. hmph. And what of the newer generations, are they not deserving of a good thing? All that they have, they inherit from the generation before them.. so if things are bad now, who is truly to blame? Are the newbs to blame for being newbs? Or maybe it is that the oldbies are to blame for being newbs? lol those few self-righteous bums who would take on the title of being one of the greatest and yet not live up to it.. they would rather be called the best and act like the worst.. and the newbs looking on think "i want to be like them, they are the best!" so now we have an entire warped view of what is good and what is not.. and it is not the fault of the newbs. Baw. Baw. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
Getting away from Colony for a minute... I camp all the time in Raze. I just stand on a weapon spawning area and just blast whoever comes back from the dead. There are several good spots to camp out in that game. I know Raze 2 will need to change the way people/items/guns spawn because everyone will just camp out in Multiplayer just to get the easy win.
It's like the same thing with hackers: they hack games so they can get their rank up easily. But instead with camping, and seeing as how camping (probably) won't be against the rules, people will do it for a rank. Just. Look. At. The. Hackers. Problem revolved. Can we get this useless argument over with? This guy doesn't know a thing about other people's minds...
I just proved you wrong with my previously said statements. Done here.
He said in FPS camping is bad, this is true because the goal in competitive FPS games is different. The goal in any FPS ranges from : What team can get the most kills in a said time limit? What team can obtain the desired number of objects? What team can last the longest? Any smart person can look at this list of goals and say camping is bad manner and shouldn't be used.
He also said it is ok in RTS games, which I agree with also because I play Starcraft. The goal in most RST games is to build an army to kill your opponent, while they try to do the same. I don't really know what else to say here because you are wrong about Colony.
Ok, I got it. You said something like Krin didn't intend to make Colony so players can camp. I don't remember because I read it last night; but if that was true, why is there a unit that can shoot from one side to the other side. It is really hard for you not to let a Far Sniper camp because it have a range of 720. You also have the Black Queen that can target units 500 pixels away, that's half of the field. I guess that's all I can think of, sadly. I just don't know what to say to someone who doesn't understand RTS.
Ok, I got it. You said something like Krin didn't intend to make Colony so players can camp. I don't remember because I read it last night; but if that was true, why is there a unit that can shoot from one side to the other side. It is really hard for you not to let a Far Sniper camp because it have a range of 720. You also have the Black Queen that can target units 500 pixels away, that's half of the field. I guess that's all I can think of, sadly. I just don't know what to say to someone who doesn't understand RTS.
Baw.. why not re-read what i wrote if you are to comment on it so critically?
I said that the inclusion of pinning as a regular an essential portion of the game makes a ton of units and buildings and strategies obselete and pointless because they do not work for pinning because they take too long, die too easy, cost too much or require too many upgrades.. Am i wrong on this one? Hmph.
Also..
You speak to me as if i have not played a ton of games before. xD
To be honest, the only FPS i have ever been into was halo 2 for a while.. and that was like.. some years ago...before the halo community became homophobic e-tards.. back when they had mind blowing mods too. xD
He also said it is ok in RTS games, which I agree with also because I play Starcraft.
Yeah, in that game, one of the best strategies can be to camp outside of the enemy base thus making it hard for them to expand whilst making it simple for you to overwhelm them due to your massive resource bonuses. I do like SC2.:L
I think Esordereno is sidestepping the issue here. Colony was very well balanced b4 the introduction to monarchy. But now the only possible way to win a game is to rush and pin.
Rush builds have become so prevalent and have almost no counter long term wise. There should be some sort of punishment to a rusher if someone defending and teching up for the long term. But because rushes have evolved to become so powerful, hoves, sakatas, phantoms, are rarely ever utilized anymore. The staple of tech units are obsolete because 1 spec ops group is effective enough to kill anyting before black queens.
Camping is a legitimate strategy, if you let yourself get into that position its you own fault and quit complaining, but there SHOULD be a mechanic in the game where there are great rewards for getting out of a pin.
In old school colony the rushes where roman scout chrons snipers, You would be pinned but had the possiblity of getting out. The name of the game then was to kill the enemy b4 they teched up to black queens.
The simplest fix to this is probably just making the map longer so there is a bit more travel distance. i kno games where i just needed 1 to 2 seconds more to pump out that black queen and give me that small sliver of victory.
1 spec ops group is effective enough to kill anyting before black queens
A couple of hover tanks does the trick as well.
But yeah, I mainly rush in 1v1s nowadays but never with Mon, cap gives you the ability to rush and hold center early game for influence and then either go for teching or make an ops for missiles or something. Cap always was and always will be my favourite government.
I can give you a ****load of decent strategies that do not involve spawn killing. Spawn killing is not and never will be "legit" for me. That is a concept i cannot wrap my mind around.
I do not know how you can say i am side-stepping the issue since i think i have brought up every possible argument i can so far, but just realized, at the end of the day, people will do what they want.. so instead of trying to make them do something different, make them understand the damage they do to their own experiences that they may want something different?
In old school colony the rushes where roman scout chrons snipers, You would be pinned but had the possiblity of getting out. The name of the game then was to kill the enemy b4 they teched up to black queens.
No offense but, that **** is weak. I can do a TON of strategies with only those units to win without pinning and i use them all the time--i rarely have to upgrade my buildings. I
rush
, yes, but
never
spawn kill.
Also: for the argument with far snipers.. the choice to use far snipers for pinning is just the same as the choice to use any other unit for pinning. I think that is a poor argument to offer. I utilize far snipers effectively sometimes and i never have felt the
need
to pin (i either attack base or keep my snipers back just enough so that they have a little room to build). It is a thing i do not understand.
The simplest fix to this is probably just making the map longer so there is a bit more travel distance. i kno games where i just needed 1 to 2 seconds more to pump out that black queen and give me that small sliver of victory.
Fair.. but i think my suggestion is a bit better. If you make the map longer to the point that one could have a black queen by the time a chronite gets to the other end of the map, you will just make tier 1 units obselete, which they do not have to be, they are effective for fast influence gain and rushing base, not camping out front of it for spawn killing.
Derp, I use Phantoms in some of my builds. The only units I don't use on a normal basis are Far Snipers.
Lol Soy, i dare you to play a game with g3tSome or NoSleep where they pin you and you try to make phantoms. It wont go so well.. Even you know that with basic chronites+marines pin, tier 2 of forge can be shutdown.
Call it what you want. Each label, ultimately, makes it no more or less what it is.
Also, I was criticized in a game recently for my teammate utilizing 2 hover tanks to support air forces attacking a base. Now, my opponent says this was the same as pinning and therefore i should cease my argument, complaining, and claiming i do not pin, but of course i see a difference here in the case of using units to support other units that are actually attacking enemy base.
For example: when you attack with tanks you will need units to kill the air units--best to have is the anti-air sakata cannons. Now, should you utilize these to kill air units as they are spawned in order to defend your tanks that are in the process of attacking enemy base, is that really pinning? I think anyone who plays the game, as well as my opponent, can clearly see the difference in the two actions of spawn killing while in the process of attacking base and spawn killing while camped just outside of the base..
