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Alright I have been researching theories talking with other Atheists and I have discovered some people who are Atheists but for the wrong reasons like...
1.Settling a score with God because they hate him for (whatever)reasons.
2.Just because.
Some good reasons...
1.There is no evidence.
2.A book written by primitive people is no proof for any God/Gods.
3.Nothing can be omniscient and omnipotent.
Any other reasons can be stated for I am interested in some of your reasons or reasons not to be.
- 660 Replies
I 'll answer the above with a question - what language does God speak in?
After so much time religion is trying to translate the original meaning with the same words, without noticing the words changed their meanings. Far-stretched metaphore, but i hope you got my..errmm..yes..meaning.
Now that's just picking a small point that wouldn't make much of a difference either way. Like arguing over the pronunciation of pecans.
No it's not saying the same thing. Suggest and command are completely different.
I meant the commandments referring more to interactions between people but interpret it how you will.
So just picking and choosing even here....
Wouldn't that go back on what you said earlier?
Can you be more specific? I've said a lot so far.
Some can't, that's why the 10 commandments, jail, and religion overall were made. Some people can't see this without the thought of an omnipotent being watching their every move.
So a small minority justifies everything?
Keep in mind the context in which the Ten Commandments were written.
So for religion to move forward, and for it to have any place in a modern world, it needs to be updated.
In this case considering the context for the time it was written would be pointless if it's suppose to apply for any time. When we consider this is suppose to be for all time, it fails.
But if this religion is supposedly the word of God, why is it wrong? Why would it need to be updated? Logically, any commandment from an all powerful all knowing being who created us all should not get such important things as the morals by which we should live by wrong.
As far as I can tell, all the ten commandments morals still apply today. It's immoral to steal, or sleep with another mans wife, and if you worship God, basically pledging yourself to him, it's immoral to also worship another idol (from a religious point of veiw).
Like I said, I'm not looking at God as an entity, but as an idea. So, from my point of view, the Ten Commandments were set by Moses in his interpretation of Gods will (I'm not a theist, just by the way). Likewise, all interpretations of these holy texts would have been the interpretation of man, and all these holy texts themselves would be mans interpretation of God.
In this case considering the context for the time it was written would be pointless if it's suppose to apply for any time. When we consider this is suppose to be for all time, it fails.
But it's not supposed to apply for anytime. You're looking at this the wrong way. The Ten Commandments are only "supposed" to be timeless if you assume that the basis of the argument was that God set them down. However, I find that highly unlikely. What the Ten Commandments do apply to is the time they were written, which makes a lot of sense. They are not failed, it's just wrong to assume that Moses' interpretations of an idea would apply to all time.
The Ten Commandments
Why isn't **** or molestation in the "holy ten commandments"
Sorry hit submit earlyXD
Anyways if God thinks worshiping him is more important than rpe then I don't if this God is really omnipotent.
Why isn't **** or molestation in the "holy ten commandments"
That falls under "Thou shall not commit adultery."
Why isn't **** or molestation in the "holy ten commandments"
I think that counts as adultery.
From Dictionary.com (the definition from Easton's bible dictionary)
Adultery: "conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit (immoral) intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman was fornication."
As far as I can tell, all the ten commandments morals still apply today. It's immoral to steal, or sleep with another mans wife, and if you worship God, basically pledging yourself to him, it's immoral to also worship another idol (from a religious point of veiw).
It doesn't say if you worship God don't worship an idol. It says to just worship God and don't make idols.
Like I said, I'm not looking at God as an entity, but as an idea. So, from my point of view, the Ten Commandments were set by Moses in his interpretation of Gods will (I'm not a theist, just by the way). Likewise, all interpretations of these holy texts would have been the interpretation of man, and all these holy texts themselves would be mans interpretation of God.
That's why I said it puts into question the concept of God being about free will. In the mindset of those righting this it would seem God wasn't about free will but issuing commands as some sort of supernatural ruler.
But it's not supposed to apply for anytime. You're looking at this the wrong way. The Ten Commandments are only "supposed" to be timeless if you assume that the basis of the argument was that God set them down. However, I find that highly unlikely. What the Ten Commandments do apply to is the time they were written, which makes a lot of sense. They are not failed, it's just wrong to assume that Moses' interpretations of an idea would apply to all time.
When the ten commandments get brought up as ones guidelines it's from someone with such a belief that they come from God. Those were the people I was addressing before. So that would be the context to look at them from. But as you said it fails that way.
That falls under "Thou shall not commit adultery."
No it doesn't. Adultery is having sex with someone other then your spouse. Considering harems were allowed for the time this was written this commandment would have only applied to women. It does not cover **** or molestation.
I think that counts as adultery.
From Dictionary.com (the definition from Easton's bible dictionary)
Adultery: "conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit (immoral) intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a woman was an adulteress. Intercourse between a married man and an unmarried woman was fornication."
You will notice the key factor there is the requirement of the woman being betrothed or married. So raping an unmarried woman would not be adultery (that would require you to marry the woman according to the Bible btw.) It definitely wouldn't cover many cases of molestation when the victim is underage. (I say most as there have been children who were betrothed in history.)
It doesn't say if you worship God don't worship an idol. It says to just worship God and don't make idols.
Presumably making an idol will result in the worship of that idol, at least pertaining to that time. But that commandment is related to the story of the Golden Calf, so it is again very much applicable given the circumstances in which it was written.
That's why I said it puts into question the concept of God being about free will. In the mindset of those righting this it would seem God wasn't about free will but issuing commands as some sort of supernatural ruler.
But we would have the free will to disobey those commands. Yes, that would result in punishment from God (theoretically), but that's like saying because it's illegal to kill a man, the government is trying to take away all our freedom and rule over us. It's automatically assuming the most extreme assumption.
When the ten commandments get brought up as ones guidelines it's from someone with such a belief that they come from God. Those were the people I was addressing before. So that would be the context to look at them from. But as you said it fails that way.
In terms of a moral guide though, they are still almost completely relevant as a moral guide (besides the idol part, unless you're a christian, and the shabbat part, unless you really like your day of rest).
Presumably making an idol will result in the worship of that idol, at least pertaining to that time. But that commandment is related to the story of the Golden Calf, so it is again very much applicable given the circumstances in which it was written.
I know what it's related to, but that wasn't my argument. To apply this to today you had to adding the word "if", even then this along with about the first five aren't commandments of morality but commandments dealing with worship of God.
But we would have the free will to disobey those commands. Yes, that would result in punishment from God (theoretically), but that's like saying because it's illegal to kill a man, the government is trying to take away all our freedom and rule over us. It's automatically assuming the most extreme assumption.
The answer that is usually given of why God is allows all the horrific acts that we see done in this word is "free will". This however does not fit with the Biblical description of God doing things such as issuing commandments. I'm not taking it to one extreme or the other here.
In terms of a moral guide though, they are still almost completely relevant as a moral guide (besides the idol part, unless you're a christian, and the shabbat part, unless you really like your day of rest).
Only about half and even then they are circumstantial.
The answer that is usually given of why God is allows all the horrific acts that we see done in this word is "free will". This however does not fit with the Biblical description of God doing things such as issuing commandments. I'm not taking it to one extreme or the other here.
I fail to see how God issuing commandments in any way counteracts the gift of free will. These are rules laid down by him, much in the same way that rules are set by parents or a government. Nobody has to follow the commandments, just like nobody has to follow the law. And there are many cases where following the law is unnecessary or downright stupid, and the same applies to the commandments.
God isn't making anyone do anything with commandments. Like many forms of law, they are merely a set of guidelines for a society, and breaking those guidelines will result in some kind of judgement. If you break them for valid or good reasons, then I assume you won't have to worry about unjust punishment (in terms of Gods judgement. I can't speak for the courts of man. They can suck).
Only about half and even then they are circumstantial.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to pull out the commandments here, because a majority of them actually have place in the modern world.
"Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."
This one's a bit loose, but basically, it's saying "Don't swear oaths if you won't keep them", only in Bible-Speak. If it's interpreted rationally, it's as meaningful today as it was six thousand years ago.
"Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"
Again, this one doesn't have a huge impact on modern life, but it encourages at least on day of rest from work, which I would imagine is good for the health, be it mental or physical. Although days of rest aren't necessary, and aren't a moral code, so this is really a give or take commandment when it comes to modern society (although we do have weekends, and days off from work and all, so I'd say it still has modern application).
"Honor your father and your mother..."
"Do not murder"
"Do not commit adultery."
"Do not steal."
"Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"
"Do not covet your neighbor's wife"
All of these are very straightforward, and extremely applicable today. Don't steal, murder, cheat, help your neighbors wife (or husband) cheat, or give a false testimony, and respect your parents, who raised you.
It's only the first two, being don't worship any other gods and don't create idols or images of God that really have no place today, except for those who follow any Abrahamic religion. Anyways, most religions are against the practice of multiple faiths, and so those hardly seem extreme or specific to a certain time. Generally, you choose a religion and stick with it.
I fail to see how God issuing commandments in any way counteracts the gift of free will. These are rules laid down by him, much in the same way that rules are set by parents or a government. Nobody has to follow the commandments, just like nobody has to follow the law. And there are many cases where following the law is unnecessary or downright stupid, and the same applies to the commandments.
It's telling you what to do. It's a do this or else situation, that negates free will. This is also the problem with introducing the concept of hell
[quote]"Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..."
This one's a bit loose, but basically, it's saying "Don't swear oaths if you won't keep them", only in Bible-Speak. If it's interpreted rationally, it's as meaningful today as it was six thousand years ago.[/quote]
(NIV)
Exodus 20:7
"You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
Deuteronomy 5:11
"You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
Doesn't say anything about making oaths. This is about being respectful to God. This again is not a moral guideline but one that only applies to God like worshiping God and not making idols.
[quote]"Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy"
Again, this one doesn't have a huge impact on modern life, but it encourages at least on day of rest from work, which I would imagine is good for the health, be it mental or physical. Although days of rest aren't necessary, and aren't a moral code, so this is really a give or take commandment when it comes to modern society (although we do have weekends, and days off from work and all, so I'd say it still has modern application).[/quote]
(NIV)
Exodus 20:8-11
-"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
-Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
-but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
-For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Deuteronomy 5:12
-"Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you.
-Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
-but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.
-Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
First off the reasoning behind the existence of the weekend off has to do with this commandment. So this becomes a sort of self applying commandment.
Note that in both chapters it says to work six days and rest on the seventh. This does not apply to the modern age with out two day weekend. Next thing to note is the reasoning behind why it should be kept. This is different between the chapters. In Exodus the reason comes from God the Genesis account of God resting. In Deuteronomy it's because of the slaves being freed. The former is again about God and the latter is not applicable to today's living. This again does not deal with morality. As I said only about half of them are relevant as moral guides.
All of these are very straightforward, and extremely applicable today. Don't steal, murder, cheat, help your neighbors wife (or husband) cheat, or give a false testimony, and respect your parents, who raised you.
I agree these are, they are for the most part basics for a functioning society, though with circumstances varying.
(NIV)
Exodus 20:12
"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
Deuteronomy 5:16
"Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
This one apparently had something to do with living long lives in the land God gave them, not really applicable to modern life there. As for honoring one's parents I would think this is more of something that should be earned rather then just given away. If your dad is a drunk abusive so and so and your mom is a negligent crack smoking prostitute, there really isn't a reason to honor these low lifes. So as a moral this is a bit iffy to me.
(NIV)
Exodus 20:13
"You shall not murder.
Deuteronomy 5:17
"You shall not murder.
This one can also depends on the version that is we are reading from as some say not to kill which is far more generalized when it come to interpretations. However there are plenty of places in the Bible where this commandment is given exception too. In every day life This can be circumstantial in situations where it's kill or be killed. So this one Biblically or in a modern context is provisional to degrees.
(NIV)
Exodus 20:14
"You shall not commit adultery.
Deuteronomy 5:18
"You shall not commit adultery.
As already covered this is a man having sexual relations with a married woman who is not the woman's husband. If all parties involved are okay with this, so what? In a modern context this is just an attempt to legislate morality rather then something necessary to exist for a society to function.
(NIV)
Exodus 20:15
"You shall not steal.
Deuteronomy 5:19
"You shall not steal.
Yeah pretty straight forward, good idea in general like the don't kill/murder however there are times when stealing might be required such as to get food.
(NIV)
Exodus 20:16
"You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
Deuteronomy 5:20
"You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
This one is actually a lot more explicit then just not lying as many interpret it as meaning.
I will this explanation to a bit more knowledgeable individual.
An Invitation to Ray Comfort - You Shall Not Lie
(NIV)
Exodus 20:17
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
Deuteronomy 5:21
"You shall not covet your neighbor's wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbor's house or land, his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
This one in a modern context is rather silly. Not only is it human nature to want what we don't have and wish we had something that someone else has, this is part of how capitalism works.
It's telling you what to do. It's a do this or else situation, that negates free will. This is also the problem with introducing the concept of hell.
Sorry, I don't mean to jump in but...
noun
1.
free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2.
Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.
This is the definition of free will. While the first one is pretty general, the second seems to be what you're talking about. So if you go by the first definition, (which I do) then God could threaten to beat you into the ground if you don't belive in him. But as long as you can choose then you have free will. (I apply this to everything.)
So if you go by the first definition, (which I do) then God could threaten to beat you into the ground if you don't belive in him. But as long as you can choose then you have free will. (I apply this to everything.)
No having a threat to beat you into the ground if you don't do believe would not be free will as it uses coercive tactics to influence the choice rather then one's independence.
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