The Religion Debate Thread - Armor Games Community

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119 posts

Chamberlain

Posted October 2, '16 6:00am UTC Edited October 2, '16 6:02am UTC by popington

No one can enter His presence because no one is perfect, except for Jesus because Jesus is God in the flesh.

So basically, we get punished because we dont live up to God's standards. And God's standards are (basically) "We must be God."
and then we get eternal punishment for not being something we could never be.

God has been described as a &quoterfect heavenly father" so if you use that analogy, with earthly terms, you get this example: "Son, i created you. I love you, and i am your authority. You must love me, and you must do everything i say at all times. If you so much as think something that i wouldn't approve of, i will forever kick you out of my family, and inflict constant pain on you for all of eternity"
that seems... harsh. and unrealistic.

God's plan to save us is kind of self centered as well.
God has standards
We can't live up to them
We either have to give our whole life to Him or suffer eternally
His plan to save us from that punishment...
Is Himself.

i guess a cycle of "everything is about God" makes some sense because he did create everything, but if He doesn't get just 1 thing he wants, he inflicts eternal punishment? Still seems harsh...

[quote]No one can enter His presence because no one is perfect, except for Jesus because Jesus is God in the flesh.[/quote]

So basically, we get punished because we dont live up to God's standards. And God's standards are (basically) "We must be God."
and then we get eternal punishment for not being something we could never be.

God has been described as a "perfect heavenly father" so if you use that analogy, with earthly terms, you get this example: "Son, i created you. I love you, and i am your authority. You must love me, and you must do everything i say at all times. If you so much as think something that i wouldn't approve of, i will forever kick you out of my family, and inflict constant pain on you for all of eternity"
that seems... harsh. and unrealistic. :(

God's plan to save us is kind of self centered as well.
God has standards
We can't live up to them
We either have to give our whole life to Him or suffer eternally
His plan to save us from that punishment...
Is Himself.

i guess a cycle of "everything is about God" makes some sense because he did create everything, but if He doesn't get just 1 thing he wants, he inflicts eternal punishment? Still seems harsh...

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nichodemus

14,988 posts

Grand Duke

Posted October 2, '16 6:13am UTC

I like the way the debate is going.

More active posters please!

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Doombreed

7,022 posts

Templar

Posted October 2, '16 7:02am UTC Edited October 2, '16 7:04am UTC by Doombreed

I'm...not sure if this makes any sense?

What he means is that since Adam and Eve might have been immortal, then the indefinite command "Don't eat the Fruit" would have been active for the entirety of the lifetime. The timeframe as such adds credibility to the idea that it was a trap, that's what he says, because they would be further likely to eat the fruit some time in their life if they were immortal. However their lifetime was not indefinite, it was close to a millennium as Adam lived 930 years

Their failure does not mean they were not ready. If He knew that they had no chance of succeeding, then you would be correct.

Hmm, maybe there is a slight difference as to how each of us think His Omniscience works. What Emp seems to think is that God KNEW beyond any doubt they would fail. And since he knew it beyond any doubt, there WAS no chance of succeeding. And if there was no chance of succeeding, they had no chance of succeeding in the test. That's why God would have probably known that they had no chance. because knowing they would fail also by extension guarantees he knew they had no chance, due to His omniscience.

just changed His mind and sent somebody (who they have no reason to distrust) to give them the OK.

What most people here seem to underestimate is just how human Adam and Eve were before eating the Fruit. They are portrayed as naive, close to god, etc. but remember, they were capable of all sins and all human emotions. Like I've stated before, eating the fruit was not just human curiosity, it was not just an error. It is depicted as the product of human arrogance. And if they were capable of arrogance, it means they were capable of all human sins, even before eating the fruit, even when they were supposedly perfect. The serpent played on their arrogance AND their curiosity to achieve its goal. Regardless of what it said though, even if my hypothesis that the fall was a product of arrogance, the fact that humans could be tempted shows tehy were flawed beings from the beginning.

[quote]I'm...not sure if this makes any sense?[/quote]

What he means is that since Adam and Eve might have been immortal, then the indefinite command "Don't eat the Fruit" would have been active for the entirety of the lifetime. The timeframe as such adds credibility to the idea that it was a trap, that's what he says, because they would be further likely to eat the fruit some time in their life if they were immortal. However their lifetime was not indefinite, it was close to a millennium as Adam lived 930 years

[quote] Their failure does not mean they were not ready. If He knew that they had no chance of succeeding, then you would be correct.[/quote]

Hmm, maybe there is a slight difference as to how each of us think His Omniscience works. What Emp seems to think is that God KNEW beyond any doubt they would fail. And since he knew it beyond any doubt, there WAS no chance of succeeding. And if there was no chance of succeeding, they had no chance of succeeding in the test. That's why God would have probably known that they had no chance. because knowing they would fail also by extension guarantees he knew they had no chance, due to His omniscience.

[quote] just changed His mind and sent somebody (who they have no reason to distrust) to give them the OK.[/quote]

What most people here seem to underestimate is just how human Adam and Eve were before eating the Fruit. They are portrayed as naive, close to god, etc. but remember, they were capable of all sins and all human emotions. Like I've stated before, eating the fruit was not just human curiosity, it was not just an error. It is depicted as the product of human [b]arrogance[/b]. And if they were capable of arrogance, it means they were capable of all human sins, even before eating the fruit, even when they were supposedly perfect. The serpent played on their arrogance AND their curiosity to achieve its goal. Regardless of what it said though, even if my hypothesis that the fall was a product of arrogance, the fact that humans could be tempted shows tehy were flawed beings from the beginning.

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AClSllXVlll

741 posts

Blacksmith

Posted October 2, '16 7:10am UTC Edited October 2, '16 7:12am UTC by AClSllXVlll

Forgive me if this seems out of place or already stated...

lozerfac3 said: "I think you guys should understand the nature of God before you say He is overreacting or He's pretty dramatic." How can one understand something whose existence can never be proven? The only thing that could be considered "evidence" is a collection of stories, which were placed in a book by a small group of people, all believing the same thing. In that same book also states, that God cannot, nor should be, understood by man. As such, in it's own words God is a figure that thinks and reacts in ways that individual people believe, with little to no uniform consensus on what the being truly is. If a God does indeed exist, humanity has imposed it's beliefs, expectations, and wishes upon it.

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FishPreferred

3,171 posts

Duke

Posted October 2, '16 7:36am UTC

3). Their failure does not mean they were not ready. If He knew that they had no chance of succeeding, then you would be correct.

On the contrary, it most assuredly does mean exactly that. If He cannot see why this is the obvious and inevitable result of the setup He devised, that's on Him, not His test subjects.

Creation was not deemed to be good because it existed; it was deemed good because it existed in the way that God created it to be.

Which still results in them having no comprehension of what evil is and why it should be distrusted and/or avoided.

My point was that, if they had rejected the serpent's assertion that God was intentionally lying, they would have realized that they had encountered something that wasn't on the same wavelength as everything else. But that may be groundless speculation. Maybe they simply would have assumed the serpent was mistaken.

(emphasis added ... FOR EMPHASIS!)
To reject it, they would first need to recognize the incongruity. Unless you can suggest some other way for them to figure this out, both are self-requisite and therefore completely and utterly impossible.

The serpent did not say anything about the command or a possible reversal of it; nothing it said could be interpreted as "Hey, guys, God's just told me that that fruit is on the menu." It only said that (1.) they would not die from eating it; (2.) God knew that if they ate it, their eyes would consequently be "opened"; and (3.) they would become like God in that they would know good and evil. Nothing in this broaches the topic of permission.

It really doesn't have to.
1 They receive vague and misleading information from one source about a fruit.
2 They receive vague and misleading information from this other source about a fruit.
3 The two sets of information cannot logically be true of the same fruit.
4 They have no means of understanding deception or applying critical thinking to assertions.
5 Fruit is literally made to be eaten and often specifically tasty and nutritious to creatures such as humans.

You've missed my point again. Hoarding, stealing, ect., etc. are all choices, regardless of the 'point' of those actions.

Well, no. Your point is obvious, as are its flaws. You can choose to lie, cheat, steal, and/or maim. You can choose to die of malnutrition, exposure, exhaustion, and/or infection. In paradise, you aren't likely to find these choices in a dichotomy; on Earth you do.

First of all, I think you guys should understand the nature of God before you say He is overreacting or He's pretty dramatic. Yes, God demands absolute and perfect obedience. But He himself is absolutely perfect. No one can enter His presence because no one is perfect, except for Jesus because Jesus is God in the flesh. %100 human % God. So it's right to say that he is extremely demanding, but He has the right to. He is the creator of the Universe and the creator of us.

Drivel. He is not entitled to demand perfection of a creation He Himself creates imperfect. He is not justified in subjecting His creations to torment and strife for falling short of His unreachable standards. If He wants obedience, He should be more than capable of making perfectly obedient creations from the very start.

James 1:13-18 I just want to turn your attention to what temptation is. It never comes from God but rather from the Evil One. Satan makes the most dangerous things look attractive.

Satan. I.e. former archangel Lucifer, created by Oh-So-Perfect God to do God's Perfect bidding. The same God who demands Perfect obedience and dictates what can and cannot be permitted within His Perfect paradise. Yes. Obviously, God is totally blameless and can only be held accountable for Good things. Anything else that results directly from His own actions must be someone else's fault.

[quote]3). Their failure does not mean they were not ready. If He knew that they had no chance of succeeding, then you would be correct.[/quote]On the contrary, it most assuredly does mean [b]exactly[/b] that. If He cannot see why this is the obvious and inevitable result of the setup He devised, that's on Him, not His test subjects.

[quote]Creation was not deemed to be good because it existed; it was deemed good because it existed in the way that God created it to be.[/quote]Which still results in them having no comprehension of what evil is and why it should be distrusted and/or avoided.

[quote]My point was that, [b]if they had rejected the serpent's assertion[/b] that God was intentionally lying, [b]they would have realized that[/b] they had encountered something that wasn't on the same wavelength as everything else. But that may be groundless speculation. Maybe they simply would have assumed the serpent was mistaken.[/quote](emphasis added ... [i]FOR EMPHASIS![/i])
To reject it, they would first need to recognize the incongruity. Unless you can suggest some other way for them to figure this out, both are self-requisite and therefore completely and utterly impossible.

[quote]The serpent did not say anything about the command or a possible reversal of it; nothing it said could be interpreted as "Hey, guys, God's just told me that that fruit is on the menu." It only said that (1.) they would not die from eating it; (2.) God knew that if they ate it, their eyes would consequently be "opened"; and (3.) they would become like God in that they would know good and evil. Nothing in this broaches the topic of permission.[/quote]It really doesn't have to.
1 They receive vague and misleading information from one source about a fruit.
2 They receive vague and misleading information from this other source about a fruit.
3 The two sets of information cannot logically be true of the same fruit.
4 They have no means of understanding deception or applying critical thinking to assertions.
5 Fruit is literally made to be eaten and often specifically tasty and nutritious to creatures such as humans.

[quote]You've missed my point again. Hoarding, stealing, ect., etc. are all choices, regardless of the 'point' of those actions.[/quote]Well, no. Your point is obvious, as are its flaws. You can choose to lie, cheat, steal, and/or maim. You can choose to die of malnutrition, exposure, exhaustion, and/or infection. In paradise, you aren't likely to find these choices in a dichotomy; on Earth you do.

[quote]First of all, I think you guys should understand the nature of God before you say He is overreacting or He's pretty dramatic. Yes, God demands absolute and perfect obedience. But He himself is absolutely perfect. No one can enter His presence because no one is perfect, except for Jesus because Jesus is God in the flesh. %100 human % God. So it's right to say that he is extremely demanding, but He has the right to. He is the creator of the Universe and the creator of us.[/quote]Drivel. He is not entitled to demand perfection of a creation He Himself creates imperfect. He is not justified in subjecting His creations to torment and strife for falling short of His unreachable standards. If He wants obedience, He should be more than capable of making perfectly obedient creations from the very start.

[quote]James 1:13-18 I just want to turn your attention to what temptation is. It never comes from God but rather from the Evil One. Satan makes the most dangerous things look attractive.[/quote]Satan. I.e. former archangel Lucifer, created by Oh-So-Perfect God to do God's Perfect bidding. The same God who demands Perfect obedience and dictates what can and cannot be permitted within His Perfect paradise. Yes. Obviously, God is totally blameless and can only be held accountable for Good things. Anything else that results directly from His own actions must be someone [i]else's[/i] fault.

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AClSllXVlll

741 posts

Blacksmith

Posted October 2, '16 8:12am UTC

Could you guys please put in the name of the person you refer to? It would make things easier if people, such as myself, could find the post that you are commenting on.

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lozerfac3

978 posts

Farmer

Posted October 2, '16 8:36am UTC

It seems very harsh in our human terms. We already know we can't up to His expectations. Haha alright but check this out. So first, in the Old Testament God made a covenant with Abraham. Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations and descendants, and that the "whole land of Canaan" would be theirs. The only thing that was required to enter this covenant was to be a descendant of Abraham and that you must be circumcised. (For girls, all the males before you must be circumcised.) If you were not circumcised, you declared yourself outside of His covenant. The rest of the covenant was unconditional. If you were under the covenant, one of God's people, you would receive spiritual blessings. (Gen. 12:1-3, 17:9-14, 15:18-21)
Then, after the Old Testament there was 400 years of silence in which God did not speak to the Jewish people. By the end of those 400 years, God had made a new covenant. This time, however, it includes people of all ethnicities. And also this time, the only thing you need to enter this covenant is to believe and trust in the sacrificial death of Jesus. Through Jesus's death where he suffered the worst punishment and humiliation, all of our sins and transgressions are washed away. This is possible because He lived a perfect life; He had no sins of His own. It was the ultimate sacrifice. Also note that 3 days after His death, Jesus rose up from the dead, displayed Himself to many, scars and everything, and finally was seated at the right hand of God. This shows how He conquered our spiritual death. Cuz right now, as long as we have done

just 1 thing he wants

us not to do, we are spiritually dead and are doomed to

eternal punishment

. Now that Jesus has lived a perfect life for us and He has conquered death, we are free to enter the kingdom of heaven. All your sins were payed for. All your future sins were payed for. Only if your believe. The rest is unconditional.
So yes, God is very judgmental, but He is also very loving. I could go on and on about how He gives us free will and stuff, but those arguments haven't been brought up yet. I just want you to get a sense of who God is. And oh don't even get me started on what kinda work He's done in my life since I've been saved. I mean please do.

It seems very harsh in our human terms. We already know we can't up to His expectations. Haha alright but check this out. So first, in the Old Testament God made a covenant with Abraham. Abraham was promised to be the father of many nations and descendants, and that the "whole land of Canaan" would be theirs. The only thing that was required to enter this covenant was to be a descendant of Abraham and that you must be circumcised. (For girls, all the males before you must be circumcised.) If you were not circumcised, you declared yourself outside of His covenant. The rest of the covenant was [b]unconditional[/b]. If you were under the covenant, one of God's people, you would receive spiritual blessings. ([url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Gen%2012.1%E2%80%933]Gen. 12:1-3[/url], [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Gen%2017.9%E2%80%9314]17:9-14[/url], [url=http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Gen%2015.18%E2%80%9321]15:18-21[/url])
Then, after the Old Testament there was 400 years of silence in which God did not speak to the Jewish people. By the end of those 400 years, God had made a new covenant. This time, however, it includes people of all ethnicities. And also this time, the only thing you need to enter this covenant is to believe and trust in the sacrificial death of Jesus. Through Jesus's death where he suffered the worst punishment and humiliation, all of our sins and transgressions are washed away. This is possible because He lived a perfect life; He had no sins of His own. It was the ultimate sacrifice. Also note that 3 days after His death, Jesus rose up from the dead, displayed Himself to many, scars and everything, and finally was seated at the right hand of God. This shows how He conquered our spiritual death. Cuz right now, as long as we have done [quote]just 1 thing he wants[/quote] us not to do, we are spiritually dead and are doomed to [quote]eternal punishment[/quote]. Now that Jesus has lived a perfect life for us and He has conquered death, we are free to enter the kingdom of heaven. All your sins were payed for. All your future sins were payed for. Only if your believe. The rest is [b]unconditional[/b].
So yes, God is very judgmental, but He is also very loving. I could go on and on about how He gives us free will and stuff, but those arguments haven't been brought up yet. I just want you to get a sense of who God is. And oh don't even get me started on what kinda work He's done in my life since I've been saved. I mean please do.

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lozerfac3

978 posts

Farmer

Posted October 2, '16 8:49am UTC

So as AClSllXVlll said:

lozerfac3 said: "I think you guys should understand the nature of God before you say He is overreacting or He's pretty dramatic." How can one understand something whose existence can never be proven?

It's pretty much faith based. If you don't think that's rational, then so be it. But I encourage you to trust in Him for all the good things He can do in your life. He wants you to worship Him but He also wants you to be a part of His kingdom. Cuz once you're saved, you become His child, His heir. Isn't that crazy? You should trust in Him because:
He is God and He wants you to,
Because God wants you to, He will bless you in ways you wouldn't even imagine
But really, to answer your question, you begin to know God more by reading His Word and meditating on it through prayer.

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nichodemus

14,988 posts

Grand Duke

Posted October 2, '16 9:01am UTC

This is an honest question for lozer. Taking leap of faith involves much uncertainty and anxiety for people; Hence why should people choose one religion over another? How should people know which religion is true? Much of it really depends heavily on birth / geography.

Everyone has a bit of a skeptic in them, some have just gone one god (Or a pantheon), further.

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lozerfac3

978 posts

Farmer

Posted October 2, '16 9:07am UTC Edited October 2, '16 9:08am UTC by lozerfac3

FishPreferred said:

"First of all, I think you guys should understand the nature of God before you say He is overreacting or He's pretty dramatic. Yes, God demands absolute and perfect obedience. But He himself is absolutely perfect. No one can enter His presence because no one is perfect, except for Jesus because Jesus is God in the flesh. %100 human % God. So it's right to say that he is extremely demanding, but He has the right to. He is the creator of the Universe and the creator of us."
Drivel. He is not entitled to demand perfection of a creation He Himself creates imperfect. He is not justified in subjecting His creations to torment and strife for falling short of His unreachable standards. If He wants obedience, He should be more than capable of making perfectly obedient creations from the very start.

God does not expect obedience. There is a difference. If He had made them perfectly obedient, they would be reduced to robots being commanded to say I love you. Like if you made say Siri say she loves you. There is no real love. There has got to be a choice. That's why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Evil. To give them a choice to obey or not to obey. Their only command at the time was not to eat of its fruit. They could have done whatever else they wanted.
Then you said:

"James 1:13-18 I just want to turn your attention to what temptation is. It never comes from God but rather from the Evil One. Satan makes the most dangerous things look attractive."
Satan. I.e. former archangel Lucifer, created by Oh-So-Perfect God to do God's Perfect bidding. The same God who demands Perfect obedience and dictates what can and cannot be permitted within His Perfect paradise. Yes. Obviously, God is totally blameless and can only be held accountable for Good things. Anything else that results directly from His own actions must be someone else's fault.

I think you can come to your own conclusions based on the things I just said, but I don't want to leave you hanging. This time, God gave Lucifer a choice. Lucifer chose not to obey and his own arrogance got him punished. It was Lucifer's fault and it was not a direct result from God.

FishPreferred said:
[quote]"First of all, I think you guys should understand the nature of God before you say He is overreacting or He's pretty dramatic. Yes, God demands absolute and perfect obedience. But He himself is absolutely perfect. No one can enter His presence because no one is perfect, except for Jesus because Jesus is God in the flesh. %100 human % God. So it's right to say that he is extremely demanding, but He has the right to. He is the creator of the Universe and the creator of us."

Drivel. He is not entitled to demand perfection of a creation He Himself creates imperfect. He is not justified in subjecting His creations to torment and strife for falling short of His unreachable standards. If He wants obedience, He should be more than capable of making perfectly obedient creations from the very start.[/quote]
God does not expect obedience. There is a difference. If He had made them perfectly obedient, they would be reduced to robots being commanded to say I love you. Like if you made say Siri say she loves you. There is no real love. There has got to be a choice. That's why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Evil. To give them a choice to obey or not to obey. Their only command at the time was not to eat of its fruit. They could have done whatever else they wanted.
Then you said:
[quote]"James 1:13-18 I just want to turn your attention to what temptation is. It never comes from God but rather from the Evil One. Satan makes the most dangerous things look attractive."

Satan. I.e. former archangel Lucifer, created by Oh-So-Perfect God to do God's Perfect bidding. The same God who demands Perfect obedience and dictates what can and cannot be permitted within His Perfect paradise. Yes. Obviously, God is totally blameless and can only be held accountable for Good things. Anything else that results directly from His own actions must be someone else's fault.[/quote]
I think you can come to your own conclusions based on the things I just said, but I don't want to leave you hanging. This time, God gave Lucifer a choice. Lucifer chose not to obey and his own arrogance got him punished. It was Lucifer's fault and it was not a direct result from God.

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Doombreed

7,022 posts

Templar

Posted October 2, '16 9:14am UTC

But I encourage you to trust in Him for all the good things He can do in your life.

Can do? If God loved us, He would protect and do things for us without asking for a reward -_- Who cares for his loved ones only if they believe in him and obey him?

He is God and He wants you to

No. An Ancient Book says that. The literal justification as such becomes "You should trust him because an Ancient Book says that He is God and He wants you to"

Because God wants you to, He will bless you in ways you wouldn't even imagine

Why not do that with all the things he loves? Why ask for loyalty and obedience first? See point #1, love is not love when you expect obedience and belief in yourself from your underlings.

To give them a choice to obey or not to obey.

Without informing them of the consequences of either choice and then casting them out of Heaven to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life and becoming immortal...

[quote] But I encourage you to trust in Him for all the good things He can do in your life.[/quote]

Can do? If God loved us, He would protect and do things for us without asking for a reward -_- Who cares for his loved ones only if they believe in him and obey him?

[quote]He is God and He wants you to[/quote]

No. An Ancient Book says that. The literal justification as such becomes "You should trust him because an Ancient Book says that He is God and He wants you to"

[quote]Because God wants you to, He will bless you in ways you wouldn't even imagine[/quote]

Why not do that with all the things he loves? Why ask for loyalty and obedience [i]first[/i]? See point #1, love is not love when you expect obedience and belief in yourself from your underlings.

[quote]To give them a choice to obey or not to obey. [/quote]
Without informing them of the consequences of either choice and then casting them out of Heaven to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life and becoming immortal...

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lozerfac3

978 posts

Farmer

Posted October 2, '16 9:19am UTC

Thank you for your respect, nichodemus. I think you're doing a great job at maintaining this thread. To answer your question:

Why should people choose one religion over another? How should people know which religion is true?

I don't mean to offend anyone by saying this, but I %100 believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only way to get into the kingdom of heaven and to reap the benefits of salvation. That being said, I think that people will come to know the true religion when they open their hearts to the gospel which is that Jesus Christ lived a perfect life, died a humiliating death, and rose on the 3rd day. I think you're right in that it really depends on where you were born and other factors like that, but it is my job as a Christian to spread the gospel to every corner of the world. Not like a conqueror though, but rather in a loving way as God commands.

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AClSllXVlll

741 posts

Blacksmith

Posted October 2, '16 9:32am UTC

lozerfac:

I think that people will come to know the true religion when they open their hearts to the gospel which is that Jesus Christ lived a perfect life, died a humiliating death, and rose on the 3rd day.

Why must there be a "true religion"? Many religions share the same concepts and have similar stories, could they not be connected in any way? Also what deciding factor was it that made Christianity the true way of faith? It's thinking like this that has created such a huge gap in the religions. You're basically saying that no matter what anyone else believes, they will always be wrong.

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HahiHa

8,259 posts

Regent

Posted October 2, '16 9:34am UTC

No matter how pretty something is, if you know it to be lethal, it's not going to be appealing.

However, as has been mentioned before I think, they had no real concept of death, and hence the risks involved, had they? Several points that were made before are basically arguing that they were not presented with a fair choice, not being moral agents etc. We might be turning in circles here.

Creation was not deemed to be good because it existed; it was deemed good because it existed in the way that God created it to be.

So it's right to say that he is extremely demanding, but He has the right to. He is the creator of the Universe and the creator of us.

Basically, even if we were to agree that the issue with the tree of knowledge was indeed not fair for Adam and Eve (and for all of humanity after them), it is still good, because it is God's will. There's something frightening about that.

Also, I would disagree with lozerfac3's statement. Assuming God has created the universe and everything within it, and we knew about it, we would have to acknowledge his power; however, he made us not as robots but as individuals with free will, as you say later on. Because of that, he has absolutely no right to "demand absolute and perfect obedience", as you say he does. Naturally, he still does, and that is good, because he is God. Frightening I say.

That's why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Evil.

This is the first time I hear Eden called 'the garden of evil'. Where does this come from?

[quote]No matter how pretty something is, if you know it to be lethal, it's not going to be appealing.[/quote] 
However, as has been mentioned before I think, they had no real concept of death, and hence the risks involved, had they? Several points that were made before are basically arguing that they were not presented with a fair choice, not being moral agents etc. We might be turning in circles here. 
 
[quote]Creation was not deemed to be good because it existed; it was deemed good because it existed in the way that God created it to be.[/quote]
[quote]So it's right to say that he is extremely demanding, but He has the right to. He is the creator of the Universe and the creator of us.[/quote]
Basically, even if we were to agree that the issue with the tree of knowledge was indeed not fair for Adam and Eve (and for all of humanity after them), it is still good, because it is God's will. There's something frightening about that. 
 
Also, I would disagree with lozerfac3's statement. Assuming God has created the universe and everything within it, and we knew about it, we would have to acknowledge his power; however, he made us not as robots but as individuals with free will, as you say later on. [i]Because[/i] of that, he has absolutely no right to "demand absolute and perfect obedience", as you say he does. Naturally, he still does, and that is good, because he is God. Frightening I say. 
 
[quote]That's why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Evil.[/quote] 
This is the first time I hear Eden called 'the garden of evil'. Where does this come from?

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lozerfac3

978 posts

Farmer

Posted October 2, '16 9:36am UTC

Okay last post before bed. Lol I got church in the morning.
Doombreed:

Can do? If God loved us, He would protect and do things for us without asking for a reward -_- Who cares for his loved ones only if they believe in him and obey him?

God does love us and protect us. Plus, He has already given us the greatest gift without asking for anything but your acceptance in return; He gave His life. Christians only seek God's love. The also receive love from their fellow Christians so it's all good. We don't need love from others but we will accept it graciously if given and we try to give it to them without asking for a reward.

No. An Ancient Book says that. The literal justification as such becomes "You should trust him because an Ancient Book says that He is God and He wants you to"

Well the book was written by several authors from many walks of life. Kings, prophets, and even witnesses of Jesus's resurrection! I think. But either way, I see no problem in it if it provides truth.

Why not do that with all the things he loves? Why ask for loyalty and obedience first? See point #1, love is not love when you expect obedience and belief in yourself from your underlings.

Ahah! Like I said. God does not expect obedience. And He does do all the things He loves. He loves to love us!

Without informing them of the consequences of either choice and then casting them out of Heaven to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life and becoming immortal...

The fruit of the tree did not grant immortality. He did not need to inform them of the consequences because God wanted them to trust Him. He wanted them to obey Him no matter what. He did not expect them to.
Alright, I'm gonna see you guys probably in a week. I have hella homework to do so I won't be able to reply as frequently as I would want. I'll definitely hear what you guys have to say. I'll also be praying for you. God Bless.
P.S. I'm from NorCal so I say "hella" lol

Okay last post before bed. Lol I got church in the morning.
Doombreed:
[quote]Can do? If God loved us, He would protect and do things for us without asking for a reward -_- Who cares for his loved ones only if they believe in him and obey him?[/quote]
God does love us and protect us. Plus, He has already given us the greatest gift without asking for anything but your acceptance in return; He gave His life. Christians only seek God's love. The also receive love from their fellow Christians so it's all good. We don't need love from others but we will accept it graciously if given and we try to give it to them without asking for a reward.
[quote]No. An Ancient Book says that. The literal justification as such becomes "You should trust him because an Ancient Book says that He is God and He wants you to"[/quote]
Well the book was written by several authors from many walks of life. Kings, prophets, and even witnesses of Jesus's resurrection! I think. But either way, I see no problem in it if it provides truth.
[quote]Why not do that with all the things he loves? Why ask for loyalty and obedience first? See point #1, love is not love when you expect obedience and belief in yourself from your underlings.[/quote]
Ahah! Like I said. God does not expect obedience. And He does do all the things He loves. He loves to love us!
[quote]Without informing them of the consequences of either choice and then casting them out of Heaven to prevent them from eating the fruit of the tree of life and becoming immortal...[/quote]
The fruit of the tree did not grant immortality. He did not need to inform them of the consequences because God wanted them to trust Him. He wanted them to obey Him no matter what. He did not expect them to.
Alright, I'm gonna see you guys probably in a week. I have hella homework to do so I won't be able to reply as frequently as I would want. I'll definitely hear what you guys have to say. I'll also be praying for you. God Bless.
P.S. I'm from NorCal so I say "hella" lol

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