Forums → WEPR → The Religion Debate Thread

Religion is fluid, everyone has their own take on it because it's such a personal experience and relationship. Therein lies the problem, because people from different backgrounds and experiences will naturally think about religion in varied lights.

I find that what people generally hold as virtuous of religion (Generosity, kindness, honesty, selflessness, equality, amongst other virtues) can already be inculcated without religion. So to me, religion doesn't serve a purpose in that regard.

People in extremist organisations are brainwashed by their own terms of religion , every religion makes you do sth that makes no sense , ISIS people think that by blowing up they will go to heaven and have relations with many virgins , they just make up stories to make people do stuff otherwise they wouldnt do , only cause they think they will live after dying , which we dont do imo

I'm not a great fan of this kind of debate and this is maybe my last entry here but i will give you my thought about this.

I grew up in a Christian family. We were very faithful at the beginning, I reminds me going to the church each Sunday with my mom , I was happy to see a lot of people , talking to them
and listen the other sing. (the beauty of being a child ~ )

I remember enjoying christmas , and other celebration..
That was always cool , We were a lot around a table , exchanging our thought about all and nothing , great meal and a lot of joy that was the good time.

As i grew more i started to lose my faith seeing the real face of the world and how corrupted he is..

The child grew up to a Teenager who was asking to himself a lot of questions about his life and the world. I was expecting some change , I wondering why "good" people are hurt ? why criminal are on top of the world ? what's i'm doing here ? what about "god" ?

I started to going less and less on church, You can earn some good values with religion but it's not the only way , the best for me was experimenting things by myself, after all your are the ruler of your life , not only the actor of this strange game but the realisator too !

As i grew more, life begin to be very cruel with me i lost a lot of members of my family in a very short time whitout any reasons , they were good person and i wasn't capable of understand why they leave ? Why them ? As a teen i was very shocked , Starting to be depressed it was a very dark time...

A proverb I like very much says: Which isn't killing us make us stronger.
I was started to use my pain , and other feelings who hurt a lot to climb the steep slope who's the life.

I was very solitary , and now i try to open to others, i'm thinking humanity can do very well if the people unite. Actually i see a lot of people fighting each other in the world , often for reason who bypass them or just for prove they are the best or something like that..

Now as a young adult if i can give you some advice :

I'm think religion are like a boat in a harbor they are plenty of them , you can take a boat to your destination , enjoying the travel and discovering some values but don't forget to land on the destination. In other side you can go to your destination with other ways (like swimming , air plane or any kind of transport) just experiment your own choice =)

Don't try to change other people, They can be agressive against you and you will not convince them x') , In other hand if you show them by being an example , like a lighthouse , just be a light and let the people determine if they gain to follow your example !

Be proud of our diversity , and make it a Strenght. The world would be boring if we were all the same , I'm thinking of each person can add to the potential of humanity : Atheist , Christian , Muslim and all others. Each point of view add to the balance and can influence thing in the good ways.

Beware in beeing an Extremist in all areas, not only in religion , it's never a good thing.

Choose your own path , I choose the "good" one for me , I don't care about death if i will go to heaven , die and that's the end, Resurrect in another body or thing ? , I really don't care x').

After all no matter who are right or wrong about that, you can be
good if you want to be, and that's what really matter.
We don't need to be divided by such things but on the contrary
unite to change the world in a good way, and leave this better world to the futur generations.

Besides that I still hope to see my loved ones who disappeared.
Maybe one day ? No ones know, but i hope that, I think nothing is impossible!

Last but not the least ! Have faith , faith is a powerfull force , religious have faith in god , but if you aren't just have faith in yourself =) !

Think about present and not about futur , enjoy your life , live the present !!
I Hope it can be useful to you and Have fun !!!

I'm actually 100% agree with @KatPryde on what he/she said , as long as said religion doesnt do harm to anybody , like for example isis type of religion , then it's ok , im still kind of upset about religion being taught or that people force them to believe in such religion , when i was a child i believed in him just cause my parents did and the people around me did , as i grew up i realized a bunch of stuff that couldnt had happened if it wasnt for going to church while i was a boy , now i know i can anything without having to be afraid to some sort of powerful being telling me what is good or bad

I think there are other considerations when it comes to religion.

What does harm connote? It is very easy to be accepting of most religions so long as it doesn't lead to acts of violence like what Muslim extremists are doing.

But what about more subtle forms of harm? Some churches teach a person that he is a sinful and flawed being from birth because man is by nature sinful. Is that a healthy thing to do to a child?

Or take the fact that religions subtly discriminate against women. Women play a far smaller role in most organised religions. They cannot take up leading roles for instance. Does that connote harm in some form?

It does indeed , teachng kids religion is bad cause in my opionion they have to see for themselves if they want to be on a religion , not parents choosing it for them , like jewish guys do , making they baby get circumcized not thinking that doing that may bring various s diseases and stuff

As far as I can tell, those who believe that man is utterly depraved do not single out individuals. "Everyone is evil", not "You are evil". Though the latter statement would be just as true. So, it's not as if it's a judgemental verbal beating: "You're so wretchedly evil, while all the rest of us are perfect little angels. What's the matter with you?" There is comfort in solidarity, in being in the same boat.... I'm also assuming that total depravity is not the only thing a particular church teaches....

That really depends on the context and circumstances. If the reasoning is that woman is inherently inferior, then obviously it would.

Ah well, this is not my theological viewpoint, so I'll take your word for it.... They should not be doing that....

If Eve's inferior from being formed from Adam, then that doesn't speak well for the building material!

I don't know the reason for the unique creation of Eve, but thinking about it, I suppose it probably would have served to increase Adam's appreciation for Eve. Since, before her, he was completely alone.

No? .-.

It doesn't bother you that she was made out of the necessity for a "suitable helper" and companion? I mean, it's nice that Adam didn't need to be alone anymore, I suppose, but why not make a couple to begin with? It just feels like she was fixed into creation retrospectively.

Yeah it sound strange to me too ! Why didn't start with a couple ? Or maybe ? Adam was a ying and yang version of humanity and after when Eve came there is a separation? Like mmhh geometry (male) and Vibration (women) ? Women Complement Man in aspect where Man are really bad xD so it may be the reason ? Like two point of view are better than one unique ?

Have you never encountered someone who lays most of the blame on Eve for the 'Original Sin' business? I guess you have to be somewhat misogynic to think that to begin with, but the author of Genesis makes it all too easy, too.

Yeah i've already heard that , like Eve with the apple story . The real question for me is what is really that apple ? Apple of Wisdom ? A Evil Apple ? What if Eve by eating this apple , had acquired a consciousness of being used? Lift the Veil in somewhat. I've see some ferity about her. What's the plan to put a such thing in the garden ? It's like show a candy to a child and tell it to don't eat it ? He probably eat the candy in the second after you leave.

And I'm a little bit sad no one seems to read my previous post , i expected some feedback or exchange but nothing x') Hope it can be usefull to some who read it =) !

Thanks for information Kat and thanks too for reading the other post !

I've a question in mind, you said the fruit wasn't desirable but why did it just belong here in a perfect garden ? people seem to brave the forbidden so whats the plan to tell them that , It can be a factor for acting like this , like someone tell me to don't do that why ? unanswered question can be kinda obsessive and when someone will influence you more it's a difficult situation. What did you thought of that ? It's supposed to be a test ? A mistake ? Honestly I'm lost in there.

God in no way made the fruit seem desirable; He did the exact opposite. It's more like showing a child a bit of rat poison and telling him not to eat it.

This is not what I call a test. I call that a trap. Tell a kid not to touch the hot cooking plate because it burns, and you can be guaranteed that the kid will touch it. Now if your parent didn't sire but create you, and is supposedly all-knowing, you can be sure he knows you're going to disobey him. Sure, afterwards you know the plate is hot, but apart from a small injury and some knowledge gained, nothing changed. In the case of Adam and Eve, they were made mortal and cast out of Eden. The all-knowing, all-loving God severely punished them for falling into his trap. Plot device, I say

Well, that's sometimes the case. If you don't know how to make a bomb, you can't blow up a subway. =\

A recent example might be Mother Theresa. With knowledge, you can heal, treat or at least take the pain away from sick people. Mother Theresa on the other hand sent sick people into a room with no medicine or painkillers, with the only instruction to pray. Is this what the apple story is trying to teach us? Pray to God and hope, and forget about all that knowledge that might make your life so much better?

As for the purpose of the creation story found in Genesis, the purpose depends on your theological convictions. In the Judeo-Christian tradition, it seems to represent the separation of man from God. The story is even more poignant in Christian theology, since it is meant to explain original sin. This is especially true in Catholic teaching. But in the Islamic tradition, Adam and Eve asked for - and were granted - forgiveness from God. In this view, man was originally meant to reside in the Earthly realm and Eden was simply a stopover. (Or, at least, that's how I understand the story.)

But the story itself is super ancient. Stories involved fruit and snakes that tie into the creation of Earth can be traced back to at least early Babylon, if not earlier. It also gets a bit muddied because the term 'apple' really referred to any fruit. So trying to nail down the meaning of this story in the absence of cultural or theological convictions isn't going to work.

But I want to point out a deep inconsistency in this story (besides the obvious ones that make this story entirely unbelievable). As has been pointed out, this could easily be viewed as a trap. Kat's point is that traps are meant to, well, trap something. But the broader point I have in mind is that this is a malicious and evil act perpetrated by a supposedly loving God who knew full well that Adam and Eve would eat this fruit.

The inconsistency is in the nature of the fruit itself. It comes from the Tree of Knowledge which, depending on the interpretation, grants one of the following:
1) Knowledge of good and evil, or
2) Knowledge of everything

Since (1) is captured by (2), I want to focus on (1). Everything I say here will apply to (2) since knowledge of everything would include knowledge of moral truths.

So here's my issue. Before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve lacked moral knowledge. Now, Kat is right to point out that disobeying God comes with certain risks. But here, the risk vs. reward is huge! Not only is mankind now doomed to die, but we are also (according to the Christian tradition) now doomed to toil on the land, deal with disease and starvation, experience pain during childbirth and so on. Bottom line: all of mankind is forced to suffer throughout our lives because of the decision made by 2 individuals. If this doesn't seem unfair, let's add onto this the following claim:

Adam and Eve were not moral agents!

After all, they lacked moral knowledge. This follows from (1) above. At least a child who is told to not touch something has moral knowledge - she knows that disobeying her parents is wrong. But presumably Adam and Eve couldn't have known even this. So ultimately they (and, by extension, the rest of us) were punished despite the fact that they weren't properly equipped to make an informed moral decision regarding whether they should eat this fruit.

Put another way, God set them up to fail. And this, by my lights, is a trap. And it's one that is simply evil, pure and simple. God put them in a situation knowing full well that they would fail but also set it up so that they couldn't even make an informed decision to not fail this test. Think about it - before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve didn't even realise they were naked and that this might be something of which they should be ashamed. It seems perfectly reasonable to conclude that they didn't have the appropriate faculties of moral reasoning to properly assess whether they should have eaten the fruit. And it's certainly an overreaction on the part of God to punish all of humanity for this supposed transgression.

But let's also think about God's command: Don't eat this fruit, guys, or you will know death. If you have no idea what death is, how do you even know whether this is a good thing or a bad thing? They would presumably have lacked a concept of death (as well as disease and even suffering) since they had only been in existence for a few days.

Now, one possible response to this might tie into divine command theory. We don't really need to be moral agents or have any sort of capacity for moral reasoning if we just do what God tells us to do. But this sort of response completely misses out on what is means to be a moral agent who can be held accountable for his or her actions. Unless God is prepared to tell us what to do in every situation we encounter, we're going to need some sort of moral reasoning. In addition, terribly heinous things would be permissible under divine command theory including, but not limited to: human sacrifice, rape, incest, infanticide, and, of course, slavery. All of these things were commanded by God and carried out by his loyal followers.

So yet again we are faced with a God who I'm glad doesn't exist. To be held captive under this sort of tyrant, being forced to worship him on pain of eternal punishment is not my idea of a life worth living.

. At least a child who is told to not touch something has moral knowledge - she knows that disobeying her parents is wrong.

I thought they were told not to eat the fruit?