Knowing is not planning, nor is it dictating every singe action within that knowledge.
So you're saying that He came up with this whole scenario on a whim without even thinking of the consequences? Or are you suggesting that He just doesn't care what the outcome is, so long as He can say that they had a choice?
"Knowing they would fail does not equal knowing they had no chance of not failing.""Of course it does."
Your point being ...?
Here, let me backtrack a bit. On page 11, Emp said the following:
If God KNEW they would fail, then He did NOT believe they were ready. Knowing that they're not ready, and setting it up anyway, means that it WAS the goal [to have them fail].
To which you responded:
If He knew that they had no chance of succeeding, then you would be correct.
Therefore, if you hold to this assertion, one of three conclusions
must be true. I.e., God's knowledge is incomplete, and/or He set them up to fail, and/or He acted on a whim without thinking.
From their previous interactions with Him, they would have begun to get an idea of His character, forming a basis on which they could judge His possible actions.
1 Isn't God supposed to be beyond any mortal comprehension?
2 If His other instructions were as vague and incomprehensible as those regarding the tree (and if Genesis is the definitive record of these events, they most certainly were), it's no surprise that they would need clarification.
That is the same thing. They could have eaten the fruit, or they could have not eaten the fruit. It's either one or the other. If they cannot make the 'right' decision, then they cannot make a decision, period, because they would just be shunted along into the only option available to them.
You appear to be having difficulty understanding how causality works. If God knows something WILL occur, God also knows by necessity that it MUST occur. For any non-stochastic event, WILL and MUST mean
exactly the same thing. If the event is a decision, that decision is still being made. The decision maker isn't being compelled to choose option A against their will, nor is A the only option they can consider. It's just the one they will pick for whatever reason they do so. Yes, they actually had to choose A, not because it was known beforehand, but because that's the one they prefer.
How would going into detail help, when all the serpent has to say is 'That won't happen to you. Instead, these others things will happen [going into more detail than just 'your eyes will be opened'], and God knows it'?
Okay, let's pretend for the moment that God did not intend for them to fail and actually wanted them to make a well-informed decision, but He already put the tree in the garden. God should by all means know the following are certain:
- Adam and Eve, through experience and biological design, will regard the fruit of such a tree as food unless they are
properly informed of its actual effects.
- There is a serpent in the area who will coax them into eating the fruit unless they are
duly warned that its claims are not to be believed and do not take precedence over His own.
- They will not be able to make an informed decision unless it is
clearly explained that they must make a choice with real and serious ramifications to themselves and all their descendants.
- They cannot be held accountable for either outcome unless they
fully understand what both of those outcomes are.
So, what does God do? Well, in
this version of the story, He goes to Adam and Eve and tells them all about this mysterious tree. He tells them of whatever knowledge it grants as well as all of its costs. He warns them not to speak with that serpent, not to heed what it says, and, above all, why they should not do so. He explains exactly what will happen, in as much detail as they want, both if they eat the fruit and if they do not. He tells them why He is letting them decide for themselves and why this is a choice that they must make. He uses His almighty powers to communicate all of this to them in a way that cannot be misunderstood. Then He lets them go and choose what they will, knowing that He has done all He can to remain fair and impartial.
Adam and Eve weigh their options carefully, paying no heed to a chattering creature in the background. After some deliberation and for reasons we may never know, they decide that, though it will mean many hardships, it is best for everyone that they eat the fruit.
God opens the gates to allow them out into the world. Although heartbroken to see them go, He knows it would be unfair to keep them any longer. They wave farewell and wander off, never to return.
The End.
*closes book* And that, children, is the story of the fair choice. It is
not, however, the story of Genesis.
