ForumsWEPRThe Religion Debate Thread

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nichodemus
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nichodemus
14,920 posts
Grand Duke

So yeah, our threads on religion have long since died out, so I figured it would be time to start afresh here!

Do you believe God exists (I know almost all of you don't)? Do you feel religion is important today? Is it a force for good? Discuss everything related to that here!

I'm going to start the ball rolling:

We all know about the rise of ISIS and the terrible acts it perpetuates. Does that show that Islam and religion in general is an awful concept? Is it the people who twist it? Or is it fundamentally an evil force?

Roping in the WERP frequenters
@MageGrayWolf @Kasic @Hahiha @FishPreferred @Doombreed @09philj

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Ntech
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Ntech
257 posts
Shepherd

@Fishpreferred


Congradulations, then. You've just defeated your argument.

How so?

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

How so?
If you recall, your initial claim was "It is impossible for there to be no God, for if there was no God there would be nothing.", which you also phrased as "He is the only possible explanation for the universe, [...]". In other words, you are arguing for the necessity of God's existence.
In defence of your claim, you gave this: "As it is impossible for there to be an infinate set of sequences which has started the universe in motion, only a self-existant Creature could explain what Is." ... Let's pretend, for now, that this would be an actual explanation and not an obvious false dichotomy. What you've proposed is that an infinite causality chain is impossible. This leaves us with that Creature being spontaneously generated; but wait, you stated that "[...] God is self-existing and was not created." and "[...] He keeps Himself in existance and always Is.". Therefore, your only recourse is to conclude that God somehow predates causality.
Was causality spontaneously generated? No, because, according to you "[...] everything happens because of a previous actuality putting that potential into actuality.". So what actuality created causality?
Ntech
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Ntech
257 posts
Shepherd

I say that God Is and always Is. He always Is. Forever. So he is not an exception to my thesis for He was not created.

FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

I say that God Is and always Is. He always Is. Forever. So he is not an exception to my thesis for He was not created.
Since you've done such a nice job of dodging the question, I'll help you: There isn't any way for causality to be created by anything, because creating something is necessarily a causal event.
This means that it is not impossible for there to be an infinite set of sequences which has started the universe in motion. In fact, unless you allow for spontaneous generation, you cannot avoid having an infinite set of sequences extending back forever with no beginning. Therefore, it is entirely possible for there to be no God. If you do allow for spontaneous generation, it is still entirely possible for there to be no God. God is not needed to explain the universe. Your argument has failed.
Doombreed
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Doombreed
7,024 posts
Templar

Those are mental illnesses that can be treated - not considerate life choices...

A bit off topic, but the operative word there is treated. Not cured. And that's part of accepting treatment as well, no easy matter at all for lots of reasons.

Ntech
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Ntech
257 posts
Shepherd

@FishPreferred


In fact, unless you allow for spontaneous generation, you cannot avoid having an infinite set of sequences extending back forever with no beginning. Therefore, it is entirely possible for there to be no God.

How? I hold that there Is a Being who has always Existed. He created us at a certain point, at which the universe began to exist. Without the existance of this ever-present Creature, the universe would not exist. Spontaneous generation, too, is impossible. Everything is caused. Casuality is not a force, therefore its "existance" is limited to the mind that currently focuses on that principle. As such, a principle is not created nor does it cease to exist.


God is not needed to explain the universe. Your argument has failed.

Prove it.

EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,446 posts
Jester

How? I hold that there Is a Being who has always Existed. He created us at a certain point, at which the universe began to exist.

How does an infinite being feel the urge to create stuff at a certain point if nothing caused the being to do so? What sparked God's mind?
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

I hold that there Is a Being who has always Existed.
You're entirely free to do that.

Without the existance of this ever-present Creature, the universe would not exist.
Ipse dixit. I explained why this is wrong.

Spontaneous generation, too, is impossible. Everything is caused.
Right, so infinite causal regression is entirely necessary. Therefore God isn't.

Casuality is not a force, therefore its "existance" is limited to the mind that currently focuses on that principle.
. . . What? I assume you're aware that being a force is not a requirement of existence, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Causality is a thing, even when you aren't thinking of it.

Prove it.
Refer to my two previous posts.
Ntech
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Ntech
257 posts
Shepherd

@EmperorPalpatine


How does an infinite being feel the urge to create stuff at a certain point if nothing caused the being to do so? What sparked God's mind?

Since He is self-moved, He did. (duh)

@FishPreferred


I explained why this is wrong.

You tried to. You never proved it.


Right, so infinite causal regression is entirely necessary. Therefore God isn't.

No. God was never generated, He always Is. Spontaneous generation has nothing to do with my arguement.


What? I assume you're aware that being a force is not a requirement of existence, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Causality is a thing, even when you aren't thinking of it.

Unless something exerts a force in a medium other than the thoughts of a human mind, I cannot acknowledge that it was ever created, or even that it began to exist.


Refer to my two previous posts.

Refer to mine.

EmperorPalpatine
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EmperorPalpatine
9,446 posts
Jester

Since He is self-moved, He did. (duh)

To do so external of causality seems internally deterministic. Is God a machine simply following His own programming?
FishPreferred
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FishPreferred
3,173 posts
Duke

Since He is self-moved, He did.
And why did that happen?

You never proved it.
So? I see you have yet to prove that your own head exists.

Spontaneous generation has nothing to do with my arguement.
Exactly, meaning that the only viable solution is that infinite causal regression is entirely necessary. Therefore God isn't.

Unless something exerts a force in a medium other than the thoughts of a human mind, I cannot acknowledge that it was ever created, or even that it began to exist.
Well, let's see:
Space does not exert a force in a medium other than the thoughts of a human mind. Therefore, space was not ever created. Solution? God didn't create space.
Time does not exert a force in a medium other than the thoughts of a human mind. Therefore, time was not ever created. Solution? God didn't create time.
Causality does not exert a force in a medium other than the thoughts of a human mind. Therefore, causality was not ever created. Solution? God didn't create causality.
Movement does not exert a force in a medium other than the thoughts of a human mind. Therefore, movement was not ever created. Solution? God didn't create movement.
Force does not exert a force in a medium other than the thoughts of a human mind. Therefore, force was not ever created. Solution? God didn't create force.
Substance does not exert a force in a medium other than the thoughts of a human mind. Therefore, substance was not ever created. Solution? God didn't create substance.
Reality does not exert a force in a medium other than the thoughts of a human mind. Therefore, reality was not ever created. Solution? God didn't create reality.
It looks like a lot of aspects of the universe are eternal and totally independent of any divine agency. Would you care to rescind that assertion, or is this something we're agreed upon now?

Refer to mine.
In re ...?
EPICRAIDER1990
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EPICRAIDER1990
16 posts
Nomad

its 2018 and I am now coming back to address this old debate. i am a 16 year old and not at all as smart as most of you but i view God as a serious matter that must be addressed. Yes I do believe that God is very real and Is moving in all of our lives. i will not go into detail because i don't know if you will care but, if u want to know how God has worked in my life post on my profile. once again I want to say that Yes God exists and I can say with confidence why some of you do not want to believe in God.also I think that using ISIS was wrong sorry didn't mean to insult anyone. my point is is that ISIS and christianity are two whole entirely different things. Their god takes blood and everything once again Post on my profile. I will answer.EPICRAIDER1990 out

Moegreche
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Moegreche
3,827 posts
Duke

hat ISIS and christianity are two whole entirely different things. Their god takes blood and everything

I don't see any previous posts from you about ISIS--maybe it got deleted or something. But here's something to consider.

The god of the Bible demands blood, like directly. The blood of sacrificed animals is a common theme in the Old Testament. And, of course, God directly orders (and occasionally directly involves himself in) the killing of entire peoples. That's something that we would call genocide nowadays.

But most relevant is the human sacrifice he demanded. Because of rules that he established, only a human sacrifice. But normal humans apparently weren't good enough. So he decided to sacrifice himself, to himself--the ultimate blood sacrifice. It's a... weird story, to say the least. And I'm personally glad that such a capricious, jealous, vengeful god does not exist.

lozerfac3
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lozerfac3
978 posts
Farmer

@Moegreche you got the blood sacrifice part down but I think your description of the Christ a little bit off. He only demands sacrifice because "the wages of sin is death". In order for a sacrifice to be acceptable, God demanded a perfect specimen. Before Jesus, the Jews were required to provide an unblemished lamb (which i think had to be a firstborn for some reason but i might just be thinking of the passover). In order to carry out His promise to allow Gentiles to enter His kingdom, God decided to give the ultimate sacrifice. And like every other sacrifice it had to be perfect. Like not just physically perfect, but also morally perfect and perfect in the sight of God. Animals I dont think can be morally perfect so it had to be a human.

Boofuss
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Boofuss
265 posts
Peasant

Why is it that God needed to carry out anything to keep a promise that He made in the first place? He's God. Surely He creates the laws He follows, if He says something, it's done? Why is it that He needed to sacrifice His human aspect to allow anything? (All capitalisation is done purely out of respect.)

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