Forums → WEPR → Abortion

Well, letting both of them die would be idiotic, I agree with you there. It just seemed as though you were saying that a fetus' supposed "rights" would trump the mother's, and I disagreed.

Well, you hold God to a different standard than society holds its own people...

In society, if we know that something will happen that will put someone in mortal danger and we willingly stand by and watch them die, we are guilty of criminal negligence or even accessory to murder in some cases. Intentional apathy is not that much different than hateful activism.

Well, of course you're human, but there is a gender disconnect that is hard to overstate. Just as a woman will never completely understand the way that we will sometimes think, we can never understand what they will have to go through during childbirth.

I don't believe that your opinion is due to insensitivity, per se, only a natural lack of understanding that is not due to your own fault.

I do not believe that it is due to insensitivity either. But the fact is that you cannot be taken advantage of, and have that burden forced upon you. And until you do, you can never fully appreciate the position that some women are in.

I see what you're trying to say about God's foresight in things, but if He kept saving us from trouble, no one would ever die, and that has to happen eventually. If they never died, they could never go to Heaven, right? That doesn't make it acceptable to kill someone and send them to Heaven (possibly the other place) before their time. That's the worst kind of meddling anyone can do. You could send someone to Hell that way, when if they had just a little more time to live, they could have ended up in Heaven. Also, God doesn't stop us from misbehaving because He wants us to choose the right behavior for ourselves rather than being forced. He doesn't want a race of robots.

Carlie, I know an unwanted baby is a heavy burden to carry alone. I believe it is a man's responsibility to share the burden with a woman if she happens to become pregnant. Although many men simply run off after they find out, I believe there would be fewer abortions if those women had the support and encouragement of their man. Any man who would leave a woman in a situation like that is a coward.

So, you're saying that you think God is omniscient and omnipotent, but chooses to let us go on our happy way, only intervening from time to time, rather than directly controlling every event? That's neat, that's always how I thought it worked, but wasn't sure who else thought of it that way.

Why does death HAVE to occur?

You're justifying that based off of our current perspective, not from an objective point of view. We view death as necessary because we live in a messed up world where our bodies are constantly degenerating. If I was going to start a race from scratch, I would never even create the concept of death.

Again, if starting from scratch, God could make a race of robots be just as happy if not moreso than a group of free-willed people. He would be making the rules that govern the universe, so he could make it how he wanted.

Well, if death didn't occur, we would fill up the planet with crotchety old people. But then you could argue that we didn't need birth either... I think it makes sense to cycle out each generation, so that if one generation was wrong about something they observed or believed something that was unfair to someone else, the next generation would have some fresh ideas to fix that.

Bloody Wolf, true. Any man who would do that would be a coward. But in the case of rape, there is no chance that the man would stay around for anything longer than to get his fix.

So in many cases there is not choice other than to bear the heavy burden, or get an abortion. And some people just cannot bear that burden alone.

Isn't that the defenition of rape? The guy just gets his fix and leaves?

Ah, the answer to your question, Razaki, is actually pretty simple. You know the story about Adam and Eve, the first humans. Though God is self-sufficient, He created humans so He could have a relationship with us. He intended for Adam and Eve and their descendants to live forever, as they had access to endless life on earth. However, He also gave Adam and Eve and the rest of their race free will. They had the ability to disobey God, but they chose to obey Him anyway, out of love. That is why God gave them free will; if they had no choice but to love Him, their love would be meaningless. You can't love or be loved by a robot, can you? Lucifer (Satan), also having free will, was the first creature ever to rebel against God, and eventually convinced Adam and Eve to do the same. Of course they felt terrible afterward, but the damage was done. They had damaged their connection to God, and that's where entropy and decay entered the universe, the very reason things don't work properly today, why our bodies degenerate, etc. The universe no longer works properly because Adam and Eve broke it when they first sinned. So, originally when God created us, the concept of death actually did not exist. But now that the universe was broken, death was inevitable. So, God chose to offer us an opportunity for life after our death on earth. That's why this is all necessary. Wow, that was a kinda long explanation, but it's not really complicated...that work for ya?

This is a bit off topic, but it is more of an argument to a few of Bloody's questions and statements.

Well, as I said before in the "artificial intelligence" topic, I pointed out that if we can give robots human traits, and have them able to learn from their enviroment, it should be possible for them to love, and they would have the same amount of free will, as well.

If you need any clarification, look back on "free will" and "artificial intelligence".

i agree with abortion completely. But of course peolpe will unfortunetly abuse their right to use it. Even if you are against abortion think of what it would be like for a women to be raiped anbd then have to give birth to the child. Its's pretty obvious what she would be reminded of every single time she looked at him. And of cases involving child abuse. One of the most popular novels out today about child abuse it a book called IT. (its a series)

I'm for abortion, I think that if a women can't support a child or was raped or abused she shouldn't have to have the child. Or if she is a teen in most cases she wouldn't be mentally or physically to care for it. I see where people are coming from that say it is murder, and a lot of people I know get mad at me for my views on this, but I think that if that child is going to have a horrible life and it is going to bring you down too then abortion may be the answer. Of course you could always put it into the adoption system, up to the women having the child, and if the man is around then he should have some say in it also. But in the end it's the women's decision.

Ha, I have born what some would see as a beautiful discussion or an abomination. Spiffy.

Before I get to my views and such, I would like to say that I enjoy that some rather intelligent folk were drawn to this.

1) Forced sexual intercourse is not about the sex. It is about control and being able to force someone to do something control. It makes the offender feel powerful. So how would you like to give birth to the spawn of a brutal assault with the sole intent of damage and humiliation? Which brings me to my next point.

2) Most abortions are done with in the first few months. At the earliest, the child is no more sentient then most colonies of bacteria. At the latest, it is more like a person on life support in a coma(which rarely get this far). Granted some can be performed later on which is where any moral ambiguity should arise.

And as Carlie has said...countless times it seems...men can not truly understand what a woman would go through in any one of the mentioned circumstances. But some men, such as myself, through one way or another can understand on the most base of levels. It really only takes some thought and trying to walk in other halfs shoes for a while.

abortions should only occure in a rape or to protect the mother.

I personally believe life starts when the heart beats, that is usually in the first few weeks.