Forums → WEPR → Abortion
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What my peers here think?
I would like to try and avoid a buch of rabid Catholics and Christians falling back only on the religious reasons and what have you. However, I do not see how that can be dodged.
My view? I'm for it. If a woman wants to get one, it is her choice. Some people seem to act like if one woman gets an abortion, it means that all the rest have to. If the child in question is not yours, butt out.
Also, on a lighter note, I say that abortions should be allowed when kids are up to 18 years old. That would solve a lot of headaches, eh?
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Sometimes though, the womans life is in danger. If she keeps the child, she AND the child may die. In a situation like that, I think it is more important to save the mother, than to prevent an abortion.
Still i wanted to point out that women often put themselves (their lives) in danger when aborting, since some of them do it illegaly, so I think we should legislate abortion in a better way to protect the women.
True, and I do think there should be some guidelines to it of course. Its just that if they make it too hard for a woman to get an abortion legally, than she will just do it another way. That can lead to a lot of health concerns, and a lot of women die trying to take care of it themselves.
Indeed, when a country forbids something, the people always find ways to do what's forbidden illegaly, but they take more risks. It is the same with abortion: women put their health in danger by aborting in bad conditions, with illegal surgeons and unhealthy material...
Legislation is also a means to protect the women, so even if i'm against abortion, I think it would be wise for every country to allow it in order to establish a good control over it.
@ XCoheedX
I'm also a Christian, and an engaged one, but I would never demand of a woman to bear for 9 months the child of a criminal who raped her.
I'm also a Christian, and an engaged one, but I would never demand of a woman to bear for 9 months the child of a criminal who raped her.
Yay Calm! That is refreshing to hear.
I heard about a country that banned abortion (I forget which one), but after that, the number of pregnant woman fatalities more than doubled.
Most muslim countries are against abortion...
It's againt the religious law.
I would love to say that I believe in that, but Christianity just doesn't allow it. The child AND the mother might be in danger, but if the doctor asks, "which do you want to save?" I was taught to answer "try to save both"
Many debates have been bought up about abortion. You can't really say whether it's bad, or good. It has it's advantages and disadvantages: People who deny abortion are accused of supporting oppression of women. People who support abortion are accused of murder.
When a woman has an abortion, she will go though many negative emotional reactions - this is called Post-Abortion syndrome. So it's not just the kid you should be worrying about. If an abortion is performed during the early months, there is a chance the child might not even feel pain.
I personally believe it is a personal choice, if a woman feels it is wrong to perform an abortion and remove her child, then she her beliefs are respected. I also believe abortion should be legalized, as some mothers are being forced to have an unsafe, illegal abortion.
This way, mothers who wish to have an abortion, can have one without being bothered. Mothers who wish to keep there baby also have the right to do that. Everyone's happy.
Here are the laws of abortion around the world:
United States: Legal on Request.
Canada: Legal on Request.
Greenland: Legal on Request.
Most of Asia: Legal on Request.
Most of Europe: Legal on Request.
India: Legal for rape, maternal life, or health defects.
Australia and Mexico: Varies by region.
Cape Town: Legal on Request.
Most of Africa: Illegal unless mother's life is in danger.
Chile: Illegal with no exceptions.
Religion is generally against abortion because it views it as murder. But if religion does not allow abortion whatsoever, then religion is commiting murder (omg naw wai!) It is suggesting that the mother should risk her life to give birth to her baby, even if she can't support him, or even if the baby has serious birth defects and will live a life of misery.
-Skyla <3
Thanks for the summation Skyla, it covers different ground to the one I provided some pages earlier. But also:
When a woman has an abortion, she will go though many negative emotional reactions - this is called Post-Abortion syndrome. So it's not just the kid you should be worrying about. If an abortion is performed during the early months, there is a chance the child might not even feel pain.
This is new info to the thread, and quite helpful. Allow me to provide a little more detail...it will be a good test of how well I remember my neurology classes!
The development of an embryo and subsequently fetus takes place over many stages. The rudimentary beginnings of the central nervous system are not present until the 'neural tube' closes ~9 weeks after conception. Only after this can neural cells proliferate, most of which is done ~10-18 weeks into gestation. Once a cell forms, then it can extend its processes (axons) to connect and start functioning.
The neural network that gives rise to pain (the nociceptive system...which actually focuses on perception of damage rather than pain itself) requires a number of other factors in order to actually fuction. Axonal pathfinding does not actually reach any stage of completion until at least 22 weeks, and the pathways required for pain (the 'anterolateral pathway', which involves 'cortico-thalamic' circuitry) can be found at approximately 24-28 weeks, although evidence that this is yet functional at this stage is nil.
Here's the evidence from the recent research done on the topic thus far, listed and reviewed. Note that there isn't exactly a whole lot and thus thinking on the topic may change...but right now we have reason to believe that the fetus does not feel any pain until well into the 3rd trimester.
As for the issue of pain in abortion, if a fetus is 'aborting' in 3rd trimester, this invariably constitutes a medical emergency- usually the result of some miscarriage event: usually the life of the baby, or the mother, or both, is in immediate danger. The actual process of induced abortion, the artificial termination of a pregnancy, is not advised for anybody at this stage. It is already difficult enough to perform an abortion past 12 weeks.
Personally, I do not see any reason as to have an abortion. And I do not just say this because I am a Christian, for those obvious beliefs. If one was a sex hound, and *surprise surprise* becomes pregnant, well that is simply that own person's fault, and they should own up to the task at hand. Some may post saying this is an 'oppression to women', but that does not even enter my mind as an objection. If you must, give the baby up for adoption. Or, solve the whole problem, and do not have sex, or simply use a condom.
Also, Skyla, have you ever seen the video, "The Silent Scream"? It may be hard to determine exactly when the baby will feel pain, but it is totally clear that in middle-later stages of development in the womb, extreme, extreme pain is inflicted upon that child as it is being aborted. Look up the video, and see for yourself. (It shows, through an ultrasound, that small helpless child being literally ripped limb from limb, out of the womb)
Oh yeah Homegrove, I've seen a few of those. Yes, I agree, it's disturbing because by 16 weeks the fetus already resembles a human (please ignore the apparent absurdity of this statement, I mean visually! Given that embryogenesis of most animal species follows a relatively common path up to a certain point.)
But the facts are still related above, and I think it covers you nicely.
Also *sigh* lemme find the rebuttals:
On the realities of the social dynamics and pregnancies resulting from non-consensual sex
On more productive things to discuss other than whether it's appropriate to legalise abortion
As for Coheed's type of argument, I'm going to put another reality in the form of a riddle:
One night, you discover there's a house on fire, and your mother, and your partner are trapped inside. You only have the ability to save one person. Who do you save, and who do you condemn to their death?
@Homegrove
It may be hard to determine exactly when the baby will feel pain, but it is totally clear that in middle-later stages of development in the womb, extreme, extreme pain is inflicted upon that child as it is being aborted.
You are incorrect. A fetus' nervous system begins its development by the end of the third week of pregnancy. Before that, it cannot feel pain.
There are many good reasons for a woman to get an abortion, some which are not her fault. If she discovers her baby is disabled, it would be for the good of the baby to get an abortion, I'm sure he wouldn't want to live his entire life (if he gets through pregnancy) as a handicapped person.
What if the woman was raped, what if she couldn't support a child, do you think it's fair for her to have to go through 9 months of pregnancy when it is not her fault?
I just came back from the dentist, and have a killer toothache, not exactly in best condition to type an informative post.
-Skyla <3
Err, yeah (that must have been some trip to the dentist!), I guess that'd explain why you wrote this:
You are incorrect. A fetus' nervous system begins its development by the end of the third week of pregnancy. Before that, it cannot feel pain.
Because...uh...3 weeks isn't exactly the middle-later stages of a pregnancy :P
On that note, you might as well see my first post on this page and read the link if you wish to pursue it further.
But as for the specifics, I've only provided scant summaries and so have missed out on alot. I'll have that to you for now.
Sorry, I quoted a little more than needed:
It may be hard to determine exactly when the baby will feel pain
Of course a baby will feel pain if an abortion takes place around 4 months into pregnancy, but we can know for certain that the baby will not feel pain before the fourth week.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
-Skyla <3
Wow, you guys bring great intelligence in this discussion...(talking about Strop le genie and Skyla)
The aspect that hasn't been studied in this topic before (at least, I don't recall it been talked about) is about the fact that people reluctantly use contraception.
Why is it so? I had a discussion lately about this subject in a Biology course, and found out that most boys are reluctant to wear a condom because they find sperm disgusting... I won't pronounce myself on the subject...
the result is that it's often the girl who has to protect heself, and the only real effective way for them is the pill. Now most girls don't want to take it because it's "dangerous". indeed it ca increase the cholesterol rate in the blood, etc.
These factors, combined, lead to unwanted pregnancy. I personnaly think that if we find better means of contraceprion (not in means of effectiveness, but in means of "ethic" it would lower the number of unwanted pregnancies, and thus the number of abortions.
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